Okay, convince me Jesus existed.

Atheism is a religion. It too requires leaps of faith on things that are really unknowable like the nature of consciousness and the existance of the universe. This whole Jesus-not-existing conspiracy theory sounds to me too much like an far-fetched theory that atheists would gravitate to so that someone can sell books.

If you don't believe Atheism is a relgion just google "Free Thought Church"
 
Kapyong

But you just compared Jesus to figures we know existed. You begged the question (you started by ASSUMING your conclusion) - it's a false argument because you haven't shown Jesus DID exist - that's the whole point.

I think you've misunderstood my point. I was trying to suggest that plausible earlier sources are to be preferred over implausible later sources, because they're more likely to contain an element of historical truth. And I referred to figures we know did exist simply because in these cases it is possible to compare the development of the myth against an authentic historical record.

So if my suggestion is valid in these "verifiable" cases, it may be equally so in the others.

I didn't assume my conclusion. On the contrary I was attempting to apply a check to it.
 
Atheism is a religion. It too requires leaps of faith on things that are really unknowable like the nature of consciousness and the existance of the universe. This whole Jesus-not-existing conspiracy theory sounds to me too much like an far-fetched theory that atheists would gravitate to so that someone can sell books.

If you don't believe Atheism is a relgion just google "Free Thought Church"
:D Argument ad Google.
 
Atheism is a religion.
Sure. And not collecting stamps is a hobby, not smoking is a habit, not taking drugs is an addiction and not learning is learning. :cool:


Bill Thompson said:
It too requires leaps of faith on things that are really unknowable like the nature of consciousness and the existance of the universe.
And where, prey tell, does it require a leap of faith to look at the evidence before reaching a conclusion?

Bill Thompson said:
This whole Jesus-not-existing conspiracy theory sounds to me too much like an far-fetched theory that atheists would gravitate to so that someone can sell books.
Yes, there's a conspiracy alright. A conspiracy to get to the bottom of the truth. Oh the horror.
 
Bill

things that are really unknowable like the nature of consciousness and the existance of the universe

I thought we had evidence for the existence of the universe, like being able to see stars and touch stones, and stuff like that. Leap of faith? Not even a hop of faith!

And who says the nature of consciousness is unknowable? What we can say is only that it's unknown. Thinking it's unknowable requires a leap of faith.
 
Atheism is a religion. It too requires leaps of faith on things that are really unknowable like the nature of consciousness and the existance of the universe. This whole Jesus-not-existing conspiracy theory sounds to me too much like an far-fetched theory that atheists would gravitate to so that someone can sell books.

If you don't believe Atheism is a relgion just google "Free Thought Church"
Bill, BTW, what does this have anything to do with the topic?
 
Gday,

Atheism is a religion. It too requires leaps of faith on things that are really unknowable like the nature of consciousness and the existance of the universe. This whole Jesus-not-existing conspiracy theory sounds to me too much like an far-fetched theory that atheists would gravitate to so that someone can sell books.

Jesus is a space alien?
What a ridiculus idea. How could theists believe that Jesus was a space alien who tampered with human DNA using Nephilim genes! This whole idea that Jesus was space alien is ridiculous nonsense Bill ! Humans have 2N=46 genes, but Nephilim have 3N=111 genes! They would never match!

And there is NO evidence at all that Jesus was a space alien - it's a completely silly argument. Spaceship technology was just too simple in those days. Did all 12 apostles fit in the cockpit? No way!

Furthermore - how could Jesus' staff really be a LASER?! Hahahahaha - a laser ! How crazy. Anyone who believes Jesus carried a laser has taken leave of their senses. Expecially when it's not even clear if it was a visible light, or infra-red laser - it cannot be true if the frequency is not known!

I mean really - space aliens and Nephilim genes and LASERS!
Hahaha... so silly. What a crazy leap of faith that is.


K.
 
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conspiracy theory
It is just plain trolling for you to continue to use this term after it has been patiently addressed several times. Superstition is a thing that exists. Gossip is a thing that exists. Social gatherings are things that exist. These suffice 100% to explain how groups of people can start talking about things that do not exist, like alien spaceships, or morgellons, or NWO genocide.

In effect, the one defending the conspiracy-theorist outlook here is you.
 
Atheism is a religion. It too requires leaps of faith on things that are really unknowable like the nature of consciousness and the existance of the universe. This whole Jesus-not-existing conspiracy theory sounds to me too much like an far-fetched theory that atheists would gravitate to so that someone can sell books.

If you don't believe Atheism is a relgion just google "Free Thought Church"
So you're dropping the pretense of rational thought and reasoned argument from evidence and relying on rubbish like "Atheism is a religion" to paper over the holes in your arguments?
Pathetic.
 
Surely, however, if an earlier source disagrees with a later one, it is more likely that the earlier source is better. NOT that is is NECESSARILY authentic, I stress.This is the same principle as that by which earlier manuscripts are preferred - a scribe is more likely to introduce an error than to correct one, there being very many more possible wrong ways than right ways (one), of copying a text.

Sort of. Historians do prefer sources as close as the event as possible and as unredacted as possible. If you could find an account of the crucifixion written the next day, or even a report written in the same year, that would be BRILLIANT. So, yeah, if you're going to take something as a source at all, indeed you'll prefer the early one. With a bunch of caveats, of course, but generally that's indeed so.

But the problem for HJ is exactly what you yourself stress: an inconvenient early source isn't necessarily saying the truth either. The earliest known version of Cinderella, dating all the way to ancient Egypt, doesn't necessarily point at a historical Cinderella. That's why even for early sources, we want multiple sources, we want sources without a vested interest, etc.

Is it not then rational, having identified a text as earlier, to prefer it; particularly if its contents are more plausible than those in later sources? E.g. insane preacher with brothers, as against son of the Holy Ghost sprung from the womb of a virgin. This preference should apply even when there is no contemporary historical evidence for the existence of the character portrayed. Brainache makes the same point with his progressive "morphing" of John the Baptist, noted by very many commentators. Literary device or not, the principle is a valid one, it seems to me.

It's only rational if you've already established that you can take something as a reliable source. THEN you can use the criterion to guess which are the more reliable sources. But, you know, that's an extra IF there.

Otherwise it's like finding a historical Cinderella in that Egyptian story.

In your Wallace example, we already know that he existed, and we have several corroborating sources for those events. We only use that criterion to guess which sources are more reliable than other sources about some details, but we already established that we can trust that he existed and did certain things.

In the case of HJ, that step is skipped, and replaced with BS sophistry. And it's kinda a crucial step.

The usual one being the argument from personal incredulity (yeah, it's named that even when it's actually an argument from credulity) which basically takes something for true or likely true, just because it's not unbelievable. E.g., "it's not unbelievable that a preacher named Jesus existed, and did X, Y and Z". So what? The veracity of a statement has little bearing on its actual probability to be true.

And another one is sneaking arguments from step 2 as arguments for step 1, although they were never meant to have any relevance there. An argument which is used in step 2 to guess which sources are MORE historical, once you've established they're historical at all in the first place, is snuck in as an argument in step 1 for why one can take them for historical in the first place. And it just doesn't work for that. In fact it fails so badly that it would make Darth Vader and Little Red Riding Hood historical too, if used that way.
 
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Mick - you seem to be making up any old nonsense without thinking or checking. Perhaps you'll consider checking your facts before posting more nonsense? I hope so :).

Fancy a nice slice of pie mate?
There's a heck of a lot of Christians and Muslims in it who have no problem accepting Jesus existed..:)

rel-pie-1.gif
 
Mick -
So Jesus was a reptilian space alien?
What?How could anyone believe that?

You might subscribe to the 'Jesus was a Reptile' consp theory mate but include me out.
Sure, he said "I'm not from this world", but that doesn't mean he was an iguana..:)
 
You might subscribe to the 'Jesus was a Reptile' consp theory mate but include me out.
Sure, he said "I'm not from this world", but that doesn't mean he was an iguana..:)
I'm not sure the horse is dead yet but....

Sure, there was hearsay that others heard and said to others who heard and said to others who transcribed and others who copied and others who copied and others translated and others copied.

If he said anything we've no reasonable basis to think we know what it was.
 
Fancy a nice slice of pie mate?
There's a heck of a lot of Christians and Muslims in it who have no problem accepting Jesus existed..:)

What people believe counts little, even more so if it is based on fanfic. Facts, arguments, or good theories on the other hand ...

I mean we know that Christian and Muslim conceptions of Jesus are wrong, with or without a Historical Jesus.

Eta:
Yum, yum.
 
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Sure, there was hearsay that others heard and said to others who heard and said to others who transcribed and others who copied and others who copied and others translated and others copied..

WAIT! I feel a revelation coming on!!!

HOW THE BIBLE CAME ABOUT (according to atheists)-
MEDIEVAL ABBOT- "Father Bartholemew, I want you to take these ancient christian scriptures to your cell and translate them into english, take 5 years on the job and i'll have hot food and wine sent in every day to ensure your comfort"
BART- "Thank you Holy Father" (Abbot exits stage left)
BART'S MATE- "Hey man, why didn't you tell him you can hardly read and write?"
BART- "Not me chum, I know when I'm onto a good thing, I'll make it up as I go along"
 
WAIT! I feel a revelation coming on!!!

HOW THE BIBLE CAME ABOUT (according to atheists)-
MEDIEVAL ABBOT- "Father Bartholemew, I want you to take these ancient christian scriptures to your cell and translate them into english, take 5 years on the job and i'll have hot food and wine sent in every day to ensure your comfort"
BART- "Thank you Holy Father" (Abbot exits stage left)
BART'S MATE- "Hey man, why didn't you tell him you can hardly read and write?"
BART- "Not me chum, I know when I'm onto a good thing, I'll make it up as I go along"

absolute drivel.
no one here think this...atheists or deists.
 
I don't mate. I think you're getting me mixed up with Bill Thomson.
If Jesus was a reptile, I'm Mary Poppins..:)

I know. Isn't it supercalifragilisticexpialidocious?




No, fun aside. I am sure I am not getting anything mixed up as I am neither of the opinion that "no-Jesus theories" (necessarily) involve conspiracies, nor that you do believe in Jesus the Iguana. And I also know that repeating these things won't make them any more true. And so I know does Kapyong. I am not sure about you and Bill, and your conspiracy mantras, though.
 
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