Okay, convince me Jesus existed.

[Lord Emsworth]

By the way, I am not a Biblical Fundamentalist. I am not saying anyone here in this discussion thread thinks so. In fact, I think people here are much too smart to assume that. This is not the case in other discussion threads.

I think RandiFan believes that Christ never existed as a matter of principal.

I think the idea that Jesus never existed does not pass the Dr. Sagan Baloney detection kit. I think that it is not good enough to say "this widely accepted idea is a lie". One has to come up with an alternative theory and that alternative theory has to explain away every thing that the current theory explains. In this case we have lots. For example, did Paul exist? If not did any of the earlier bishops of Rome exist? Did Thomas exist? Did any of the original 12 exist? What about the other earlier leaders of the Christian churches in other parts of the worlds?

Ever hear "Won't get fooled Again?"


I think that if you choose to believe something as a matter of principal, then you are doing exactly what the other dolts of other theologies do. Mormons believe things because they think doing so is ethical. So do Muslims. So do Scientologist's. Now, so do Atheists.

On the other hand, I admit, I have not read any theories that explain Christianity without Jesus.

Go here:
http://www.jesuspuzzle.humanists.net/home.htm
There is plenty for you to read. And you'll find plenty of answers (whether they are good answers is another question entirely) to your questions. Wrt your inquiry about Paul, for example, the answer has to be that in Doherty's MJ not only did Paul exist, but was in fact (one of) the key figure(s) in early Christianity.

There is much to glean from this very thread here, and from other threads, too of course.

But if it was true, why now? Why is it now that this theory has come to light? Why doesn't it come from the priests who would blow the whistle because they could not live a lie anymore? And why not at least one thousand years ago?

Why didn't the jews come up with this idea if it is true? If you go to a convention of international astronauts and cosmonauts and as a russian about the Apollo hoax idea, he will say that if that conspiracy theory is true, the Russians would know and blow the whistle.

 

[Kapyong]

Gday,

I think that it is not good enough to say "this widely accepted idea is a lie".
...
he will say that if that conspiracy theory is true,

See?
There's the problem.

No-one said
"this widely accepted idea is a lie" or a "conspiracy"
And its been pointed out to you many times.

But sadly, you don't know anything about what the JM theory is all about, and you refuse to learn. How sad.

Your whole argument amounts to :
The Jesus Myth theory is just a conspiracy, a LIE, a hoax.
But Jesus CANNOT be a "lie", it CANNOT be a "conspiracy" - so therefore Jesus existed.

What silly nonsense.

On the other hand, I admit, I have not read any theories that explain Christianity without Jesus.

Yes, we can all see you have no knowledge of the subject, and that you refuse to learn.
How sad.

But if it was true, why now? Why is it now that this theory has come to light? Why doesn't it come from the priests who would blow the whistle because they could not live a lie anymore?

Because no priest was living with a lie.
If only you had the slightest idea what the JM was about.
Oh well.


K.

 

[Kapyong]

Gday,

I believe that a man who inspired "Jesus Christ"

You BELIEVE?
Well, this thread is about facts and evidence - do you have any?

This sort of claim is repeated in every MJ thread :
"I BELIEVE that Jesus PROBABLY existed.... blah blah blah"
Boring.

probably existed before the rise of christianity,

Probably?
An argument based on probability?
Please show your statistical calculations then.

he was known as Joshua of Panthera, or Joshua of Nazareth. You can research his story if you would like. But I'll just give you the low down.

How insulting.
So you think that YOU are the ONLY one to know about Panthera - and now that you have informed us ignorant sceptics who don't know anything, we will see you are right and agree with your conclusion?

What a load of old dingoes kidkeys.
I am well aware of Pathera, and I'm sure many others are too.

Sad story, but if a man like Jesus did exist, it would have been Joshua of Panthera.

Why?
Because you "believe" it?

If you think you have an argument - please present it. Don't just preach us a story and pretend everyone will agree it's true. What a crock !


K.

 

[Kapyong]

Gday,

May we look at mythical figures whom we know to have existed, but around whose names all manner of absurd stories have assembled?

But you just compared Jesus to figures we know existed. You begged the question (you started by ASSUMING your conclusion) - it's a false argument because you haven't shown Jesus DID exist - that's the whole point.

How about we compare Jesus to NON-existent figures like Hercules or Krishna or Moses or Adam? Plenty of stories grew around these myths.

Therefore Jesus was a myth.


K.

 

[MickinEngland]

..So, give me reason to believe Jesus existed. Simple, right?

Yup dead simple mate, the entire nation of Israel and the Roman army garrison saw him for 3 long years, how many more eyewitnesses do you need?
Oh, and even the Koran admits he existed and performed miracles..
Incidentally why do you single Jesus out and not Buddha or ancient Hindu gurus etc, or do you accept they existed?

 

[abaddon]

Yup dead simple mate, the entire nation of Israel and the Roman army garrison saw him for 3 long years, how many more eyewitnesses do you need?
Oh, and even the Koran admits he existed and performed miracles..
Incidentally why do you single Jesus out and not Buddha or ancient Hindu gurus etc, or do you accept they existed?

Well, obviously, this thread is about jeebus, not buggha or any hendoo nonsense.

Why do you attempt a derail?

 

[Kapyong]

Gday Mick,

Hmmm.. I don't think I know you,
so I'll assume you are being serious for now.

Yup dead simple mate, the entire nation of Israel and the Roman army garrison saw him for 3 long years, how many more eyewitnesses do you need?

That a good story.
Do you have any evidence?

Oh, and even the Koran admits he existed and performed miracles..

Star Wars admits Obiwan existed and had the Force.

Incidentally why do you single Jesus out and not Buddha or ancient Hindu gurus etc, or do you accept they existed?

I don't.
Nor do others AFAIK.

Let's see :

Buddha - almost certainly a myth
Lao Tsu - almost certainly a myth
Hercules - almost certainly a myth
Krishna - almost certainly a myth
Demeter - almost certainly a myth
Zeus - almost certainly a myth
William Tell - almost certainly a myth
King Arthur - almost certainly a myth
John Frum - certainly a myth
Don Juan (Castenada) - certainly a myth
Hiram Abbiff - certainly a myth


Jesus is NOT singled out at all. That's itself just a myth that believers love to spread.

Many other figures ARE doubted - just like Jesus.


K.

 

[Mudcat]

Yup dead simple mate, the entire nation of Israel and the Roman army garrison saw him for 3 long years, how many more eyewitnesses do you need?

How about confirmation of all those witnesses? I'm not asking for a precise headcount (I don't think anyone here is) but independent verification of the fact when it happened.

I find it very telling that there is none.

Oh, and even the Koran admits he existed and performed miracles..

I think you're making a big mistake here because Islam ripped off the Christians a lot. You see that a lot in all religions, ripping off earlier ideas.

 

[abaddon]

I think you're making a big mistake here because Islam ripped off the Christians a lot. You see that a lot in all religions, ripping off earlier ideas.

Yup, the charlatans seem to reckon, if it worked before, it will work again.

 

[Bill Thompson]

Has anyone posted a list of books to read?

 

[RandFan]

I think RandiFan believes that Christ never existed as a matter of principal.

Since I think it is more likely than not that Christ existed then I think that what you think is utter nonsense.

I think that if you choose to believe something as a matter of principal, then you are doing exactly what the other dolts of other theologies do. Mormons believe things because they think doing so is ethical. So do Muslims. So do Scientologist's. Now, so do Atheists.

We've given you explanations why it is reasonable to believe Christ didn't exist. That you refuse to acknowledge those is demonstrative of your mendacity.

On the other hand, I admit, I have not read any theories that explain Christianity without Jesus.

What are the theories that explain Scientology without Xenu?

 

[Bill Thompson]

Buddha - almost certainly a myth

Someone tell the Shri Lankans that they have the tooth of some poor unknown monk.

Seriously, where do you get the idea that Buddah never existed?!?!

The Shri Lankins have part of his skeleton swiped from when he was being cremated.

 

[Kapyong]

Gday,

So, one of the claims made about HJ is that his followers passed on the details using an "Oral Tradition". Sometimes claimed to be word-for-word perfect.

Well, let's see :


The oral tradition totally FAILED to record the Lord's Prayer - supposedly directly taught by Jesus to the disciples. But we have DIFFERENT versions of the Lord's Prayer - the Gospels have differing versions, another in the Didakhe, and the MSS have more different versions again. The Lord's Prayer is one of the most VARIANT items in the MSS - yet supposedly this came directly from Jesus to the disciples. This shows clearly that the alleged 'oral tradition' totally failed to record Jesus alleged words.


The oral tradition totally FAILED to record the names of the apostles - we have various DIFFERENT lists, explained away by nonsense about Peter called Simon whose named was George - but we call him Stephen.


The oral tradition totally FAILED to record correctly who Cephas and Peter were - early Christians thought Cephas and Peter were different people, but later there were considered the SAME person.


The oral tradition totally FAILED to record the (alleged) words of God himself at the baptism - early Christians quote 'this is my son, this day have I begotten thee', but later it becomes 'this is my son, in thee I am well pleased'.


The oral tradition totally FAILED to record the alleged last words of Jesus on the cross - we have DIFFERENT versions in the Gospels.


The oral tradition totally FAILED to record the genealogy of Jesus - we have DIFFERENT versions in the Gospels.


On this evidence, oral tradition conspicuously failed.


K.

 

[Bill Thompson]

Since I think it is more likely than not that Christ existed then I think that what you think is utter nonsense.

Oh. Well, nevermind.

 

[Kapyong]

Has anyone posted a list of books to read?

Earl Doherty was cited.

But naturally, you ignored that.
As usual.


K.

 

[RandFan]

Bill:

1. Legend
2. Power
3. Greed of leaders.
4. Sincere belief of followers.

It's age old. Take away the legend and you have Scientology. With the legend you have Mormonism, Christian Science, Jehovas Witnesses and thousands of cults.

 

[Kapyong]

Someone tell the Shri Lankans that they have the tooth of some poor unknown monk.

Hahaha...

You REALLY believe they have the tooth of Buddha?
Really?

Perhaps they found it in the tomb of Peter ?
;-)


K.

 

[RandFan]

Shattering the Christ Myth

 

[MickinEngland]

The "Jesus never existed" conspiracy theory has parallels with the "Man never walked on the moon" conspiracy theory, thousands of NASA employees were there, but NOT ONE of them has ever come forward to say "it was a hoax".
Same with Jesus, NOBODY in Israel after his death came forward to say "Jesus who? Never heard of him!".
That's because the Apollo program and Jesus were TOO BIG to be a hoax; the consp theorists will be telling us Elvis never existed next..
Right Elv?
"Uh-huh"

 

[Kapyong]

Oh. Well, nevermind.

So,
you cannot even tell if he agrees with an HJ or not?
You could not comprehend whether he said black or white ?


K.