Obamacare Means 1/3 Fewer MDs

[daenku32]

Basically, this isn't about Obamacare, it's about Doctors getting paid less than what they are today. So, any attempt to control costs, or dealing with the uninsured, will result in fewer doctors! Yay! What do I win?

 

[joobz]

Basically, this isn't about Obamacare, it's about Doctors getting paid less than what they are today. So, any attempt to control costs, or dealing with the uninsured, will result in fewer doctors! Yay! What do I win?

Actually, there are at least three possible reasons for a doctor to threaten quitting:

1.) Are afraid the new system will result in a slower increase in salary or a reduction in salary
2.) Fear the new system would be too bureaucratic to deal with.
3.) Ideological hatred of all things smelling like socialism.


But all of these are rather non-issues for the following respective reasons
1. There is no legislation being discussed which limits salaries
2. Doctors already have to deal with multiple levels of bureaucracy thanks to multiple insurance systems, variable fee schedules, and hospital policies about handling of uninsured patients. I do not see how this will be any different, and could very likely remove a major bureaucratic obstacle in hospital care, insuring that coverage is met.
3. The Tinfoil hat community will welcome them into the fold.

 

[thaiboxerken]

I believe this was debunked by mhaze or BAC.....

That's hilarious!! Nice one!

 

[thaiboxerken]

Why would they need a new career?

A part-time job to pay for food and shelter, and if they can't afford healthcare, the government will pay for it!

Right, because those who want to become doctors only do it to barely survive........

 

[WildCat]

No, the tin-foil comes from your assertion that they want to keep the number of doctors artificially low to make more money.

Next you'll want me to prove that OPEC keeps supply low to make more money...

 

[WildCat]

What absolute nonsense.

MD's are licensed at the state level.

Explain to me how one gets a medical license without ever having been to an accredited medical school?

Many are not even a member of the AMA. Schools could increase class sizes if they so chose.

Your argument about possible refusal of the AMA to accredit new schools is bunko. Show a case where they did so and I'll pay attention to it.

The NEJM article I posted stated matter-of-fact that historically no action is taken to increase medical student class size without the support of the AMA.

 

[joobz]

Explain to me how one gets a medical license without ever having been to an accredited medical school?

By going to a foreign medical school.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

So this AMA conspiracy to artificially limit the supply of MDs--it has nothing to do with current health insurance reform bills being considered in Congress (what the OP refers to as "Obamacare"), does it?

That is, there's nothing in the bills that will change this situation one way or the other, is there? (Well--except perhaps very indirectly, since the House is probably going to insist on passing a reform of federal student loan programs.)

ETA: So we can dismiss this "Obamacare Means 1/3 Fewer MDs" as yet another scare tactic? I think it belongs right up there with "death panels" and the "government takeover of healthcare" and "it's socialism!" claims.

 

[MikeMangum]

Weird how the physics department I went to seemed to double the number of graduates in 10 years but med schools can't do anything like that.

Physics students don't work with real patients under the supervision of a doctor.

 

[MikeMangum]

No, the tin-foil comes from your assertion that they want to keep the number of doctors artificially low to make more money. Your claim is still tin-foil conspiracy theory. FEMA prison camps can be backed up with the exact same logic and documentation. They aren't happening either.

The medical profession is controlled by a guild^WP. To call it a tin foil conspiracy theory when someone refers to one of the purposes of a guild as limiting competition is roughly the same as calling it tin foil hat territory if someone says that one of the purposes of a union is to get higher wages.

And no, you're still wrong because they can increase class sizes and 'copy-pasting' class "structure, function, and performance" requires a simple review of the teaching staff and facilities.

How do they increase "structure, function, and performance" when doing so requires 1) a larger hospital, 2) more doctors as teaching staff, and 3) more patients? Medical school does not just require additional classroom space and texbooks. Adding another wing to a hospital is not the same as building more classrooms.

I know there are a bunch of people who become doctors to make money. However, ever single person I have ever spoken to who was in the process of becoming any type of medical professional, including administration, has expressed the primary motivation of helping people.

Almost noone enters a given profession for only one reason; it is usually a mix of different factors. There are not a "bunch of people who became doctors to make money"...EVERY doctor became a doctor to make money unless they are working for free. That might not have been their only motivation, but you can believe that it was one of their motivations; an important one. Many doctors who became doctors "to help people" might have chosen (or might choose) some other profession in which they could help people if doctors were paid significantly less. That should not be controversial.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Physics students don't work with real patients under the supervision of a doctor.

And how does that change the ability for schools to expand? Yes they might need more staff, but so what?

 

[Leif Roar]

How do they increase "structure, function, and performance" when doing so requires 1) a larger hospital, 2) more doctors as teaching staff, and 3) more patients?

If AMA was artificially limiting the number of medical students there would have to exist excess capacity of both 1, 2 and 3 for them to limit the number from.

 

[McHrozni]

Ready for rationing?

A total of 1,195 physicians from various specialties and career levels in locations nationally were surveyed. Nearly one-third of physicians responding to the survey indicated that they will want to leave medical practice after health reform is implemented.

This combined with the expected increase in demand could result in 50% reduction in available physicians.

http://www.nejmjobs.org/rpt/health-reform-may-reduce-physician-workforce.aspx

I suspect the effect where people say they would do one thing and then do another is in play here. Heavily.

That being said, US needs at least 50%-100% increase in the number of physicians, so any decrease is very bad news.

McHrozni

 

[ponderingturtle]

I suspect the effect where people say they would do one thing and then do another is in play here. Heavily.

That being said, US needs at least 50%-100% increase in the number of physicians, so any decrease is very bad news.

McHrozni

Where are you pulling that number from?

 

[thaiboxerken]

Where are you pulling that number from?

From a place, I suspect, that the numbers had to be wiped off before he posted them in here.

 

[Dancing David]

This has been about doctors in general. I remember hearing yesterday on the radio how pissed a cardiologist was that he might have to earn less than the 400k he was pulling down a year, due to cuts in medicare payment.

He can quit and feel what it is like earning 50k a year.

Or 24K,

 

[Dancing David]

Next you'll want me to prove that OPEC keeps supply low to make more money...

Um evidence for a cartel that says it is a cartel and acts as a cartel does not mean you have demonstrated the same is true of the AMA.

 

[joobz]

Actually,
I think I need to side with Wildcat on this one. looking deeper into the issue, it's clear that the AMA has actively sought to limit the number of doctors produced as a means of salary controls.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2005-03-02-doctor-shortage_x.htm

For the past quarter-century, the American Medical Association and other industry groups have predicted a glut of doctors and worked to limit the number of new physicians. In 1994, the Journal of the American Medical Association predicted a surplus of 165,000 doctors by 2000.

"It didn't happen," says Harvard University medical professor David Blumenthal, author of a New England Journal of Medicinearticle on the doctor supply. "Physicians aren't driving taxis. In fact, we're all gainfully employed, earning good incomes, and new physicians are getting two, three or four job offers."

I've just lost a lot of respect for the profession.

 

[Neally]

Actually, there are at least three possible reasons for a doctor to threaten quitting:

1.) Are afraid the new system will result in a slower increase in salary or a reduction in salary
2.) Fear the new system would be too bureaucratic to deal with.
3.) Ideological hatred of all things smelling like socialism.


But all of these are rather non-issues for the following respective reasons
1. There is no legislation being discussed which limits salaries
2. Doctors already have to deal with multiple levels of bureaucracy thanks to multiple insurance systems, variable fee schedules, and hospital policies about handling of uninsured patients. I do not see how this will be any different, and could very likely remove a major bureaucratic obstacle in hospital care, insuring that coverage is met.
3. The Tinfoil hat community will welcome them into the fold.

From the article:
"Skeptics may suspect that physicians exaggerate their intent to leave medicine due to health reform. Some experts point to the malpractice crisis of years ago, when many doctors also expressed a desire to leave medicine. Some did quit; many did not. However, health reform could be the proverbial “last straw” for physicians who are already demoralized, overloaded, and discouraged by multiple issues, combining to form the perfect storm of high malpractice insurance costs, decreasing reimbursements, increasing student loan debt, and more."

 

[ponderingturtle]

From the article:
"Skeptics may suspect that physicians exaggerate their intent to leave medicine due to health reform. Some experts point to the malpractice crisis of years ago, when many doctors also expressed a desire to leave medicine. Some did quit; many did not. However, health reform could be the proverbial “last straw” for physicians who are already demoralized, overloaded, and discouraged by multiple issues, combining to form the perfect storm of high malpractice insurance costs, decreasing reimbursements, increasing student loan debt, and more."

Yea, $150,000 is a crushing debt when you only earn $400,000 a year.