Noah's Ark

[I Ratant]

I read an account by another Christian who said he couldn't get any results with dowsing rods because he didn't have a demon in him. He cited Hosea 4:12 as evidence.

.
That's the nice thing about religion. The same thing can be both good and evil.
There are no absolutes, but if the wrong guy is evil, he can be absolutely killed.

 

[Foster Zygote]

Last night on the "History Channel", a story on the Chinese Junk, a group of...... dowsers...!!! located one of the junks which got to America 71 years before Columbus, using their dowsing "skills".
Well, at least they said they'd located the ship.
Their test borings brought up some wood.
A hole right next to the first got nothing.
They coulda used a backhoe.

Hmmmm... I wonder, how do their dowsing rods distinguish between Chinese wood and North American wood? Maybe their's a little potentiometer on the end with labels like "gold", "water", "wood-anomalous", "wood-unremarkable", "car keys", "my own ass", etc.

It's possible that Chinese mariners reached North America during their all too brief period of exploration, but so far any conclusive evidence is lacking. We know that Zheng He's fleet crossed the Indian Ocean, but claims that he circumnavigated the globe are poorly supported so far.

 

[Foster Zygote]

.
That's the nice thing about religion. The same thing can be both good and evil.
There are no absolutes, but if the wrong guy is evil, he can be absolutely killed.

But if the right guy is evil, then hey, it's not our place to judge.

 

[articulett]

But if the right guy is evil, then hey, it's not our place to judge.

Indeed, it's arrogant to question god (and his proxies).

 

[joobz]

But if the right guy is evil, then hey, it's not our place to judge.

I must quote this again becuase of it's extreme pertinence to the current thread. Just to ensure that the subtely of your point isn't used as an excuse to ignore it, I am going to hammer it home.

Edge, in Foster's statement, it is clear that his "right guy" is god and that "not our place to judge" is your defense of god's genocide.

Can you not see how hypocritcal it is to claim to know what good and evil are and how the bible teaches such, but then ignore actions which are obviously evil when they are done by your god (actions which are labeled evil by god)?

I understand the loyalty you wish to hold regarding your faith. You do not want to feel like you betrayed something or someone. But it isn't betrayal to acknowlege the truth of something.

If your understanding of god doesn't permit him to do such a horrible act, than the simple answer is that the bible is wrong. Afterall, it was written by man, inspired by god.

 

[Paulhoff]

So-called god must love us so mush, because he made us so impure, and not only that he goes and starts us out with sin and it is original too, and that is even before we take our first breath, such great love.

Let us bow our heads in respect of the so-called god of love, before he condemns us to eternal hell.

Paul

 

[I Ratant]

Hmmmm... I wonder, how do their dowsing rods distinguish between Chinese wood and North American wood? ...

.
Obviously, the wood must be Chinese.. they said it was, and it came up from where they were drilling. Once.
What more can anyone ask for?
Backhoe, anyone?

 

[lippard]

There's an excellent debunking of Noah's Ark in Robert A. Moore's "The Impossible Voyage of Noah's Ark," in the _Creation/Evolution_ journal, vol. 4, no. 1, Winter 1983, which was also heavily borrowed from for Ian Plimer's book _Telling Lies for God_ (1994, Random House Australia). That book is now selling for $84.95 on Amazon.com--I guess I should have bought an extra copy to resell, even if it does defame me for five pages.

 

[Paulhoff]

There's an excellent debunking of Noah's Ark in Robert A. Moore's "The Impossible Voyage of Noah's Ark," in the _Creation/Evolution_ journal, vol. 4, no. 1, Winter 1983, which was also heavily borrowed from for Ian Plimer's book _Telling Lies for God_ (1994, Random House Australia). That book is now selling for $84.95 on Amazon.com--I guess I should have bought an extra copy to resell, even if it does defame me for five pages.

Well here it is "The Impossibel Voyage...", and I plan to read it in a day or two, I'm working today.

http://www.natcenscied.org/resource...3_12_2003.asp#Accommodating All Those Animals

So which five pages defame you, was that from the start?

Paul

 

[edge]

I read an account by another Christian who said he couldn't get any results with dowsing rods because he didn't have a demon in him. He cited Hosea 4:12 as evidence.

So lets see:

12 of my people.
They consult a wooden idol
and are answered by a stick of wood.
A spirit of prostitution leads them astray;
they are unfaithful to their God.

A copper wire disproves your point as it also works bent into a Y shape, it is even better than a Y branch from a tree, it is so sensitive that it burns your hands and not from friction but from an electrical reaction.

They could have been using that wooden idol for sex, without any further details from me.
They are consulting a wooden idol and getting answers from it, the piece of stick is the wooden idol.
To me, what they were doing was, false worship and deception, that’s what I get.

So-called god must love us so mush, because he made us so impure, and not only that he goes and starts us out with sin and it is original too, and that is even before we take our first breath, such great love.

Since Christ you have no excuse……..

No a magician tells you he is going to fool you, and then does, that is called telling the truth and there is a lot to learn from that. But in your case, you fool yourself and don't tell yourself that and therefore you believe in magical things, like so-called gods and dowsing.


Man was created after the other animals
Gen 1:25, 26, 27
Man was created before the other animals
Gen 2: 18, 19

Paul

What are they doing when miss-quoting the bible? Fooling you?

Our souls where created before our flesh so yes before the animals and then in the flesh after the animals.
Jesus tells us that.


What they were picking up in that Chinese Junk was the metals from what I have studied about dowsing..

But if the right guy is evil, then hey, it's not our place to judge.

So then you are actually defending God?
It is possible that the Hebrews covered up the genocide that they did.

After all, they were chastised heavily by Christ and they still, to this day say the messiah hasn't made the first appearance.


Everything changes in the N.T...
Christianity over rides the Jewish religion and they still won't come around and that is a fact, not all though.

From my recent discoveries you can't say that a major event that they recorded did not happen.
The question is was it world wide and can an ark be built of that size and function to save what ever they had on it and it was the biggest life boat that was ever built.

The evidence is there and right on the last layers so you can't say there is no evidence.
I believe it covered the northern hemisphere and as it receded to the South Pole it diminished enough to allow the survival in places like Australia and the Amazon anywhere below the equator.

They were talking from the perspective and their world was rather small.
I believe they where around to record the event that took place around 12,000 years ago.

There can be no other explanation from the evidence that I see.
Lots of the evidence has been eroded away but not all.

There were more than 10 people who witnessed Elvis walking among us after he died. Since you have more than your number required, do you believe that Elvis rose from the dead?

I see Elvis in Vegas all the time, just go to a convention and you'll see multiple Elvis’s.

Ask his widow if he is dead.
She will tell you he is dead, don't believe the false reports. LOL

If Elvis raised some one from the dead with a song then you might have something.

I'll be back with another link with more proof of the great flood.
I will post another link to a video I made from a location in the heart of this valley, but I need to check it.
I have two more after that but it takes time to upload on dial up.

The last one I did will show you how a creek will move sand and pile it and what happens to the flow of water the difference between the sand wave and that action.
From the same area.

 

[joobz]

So lets see:

12 of my people.
They consult a wooden idol
and are answered by a stick of wood.
A spirit of prostitution leads them astray;
they are unfaithful to their God.

A copper wire disproves your point as it also works bent into a Y shape, it is even better than a Y branch from a tree, it is so sensitive that it burns your hands and not from friction but from an electrical reaction.

They could have been using that wooden idol for sex, without any further details from me.
They are consulting a wooden idol and getting answers from it, the piece of stick is the wooden idol.
To me, what they were doing was, false worship and deception, that’s what I get.

This makes absolutely no sense and does not actually address the point that FZ was making.

So then you are actually defending God?
It is possible that the Hebrews covered up the genocide that they did.

After all, they were chastised heavily by Christ and they still, to this day say the messiah hasn't made the first appearance.


Everything changes in the N.T...
Christianity over rides the Jewish religion and they still won't come around and that is a fact, not all though.

From my recent discoveries you can't say that a major event that they recorded did not happen.
The question is was it world wide and can an ark be built of that size and function to save what ever they had on it and it was the biggest life boat that was ever built.

So, if I understand you correctly, you are saying that the genocide in the bible was done by the jews and since god could do no wrong, the jews improperly attributed the approval of genocide to god?

You understand that this argument hurts you in several significant ways:

1.) That would mean the bible is incorrect in it's attribution and is therefore not the inerrant word of god.
2.) That would defense only works for one of the genocides. It does not excuse the flood story and god wiping out everyone except for the contents of one boat. The only way your argument would work is if you also admit that the flood story is untrue.

The evidence is there and right on the last layers so you can't say there is no evidence.
I believe it covered the northern hemisphere and as it receded to the South Pole it diminished enough to allow the survival in places like Australia and the Amazon anywhere below the equator.

no.

I see Elvis in Vegas all the time, just go to a convention and you'll see multiple Elvis’s.

Ask his widow if he is dead.
She will tell you he is dead, don't believe the false reports. LOL

If Elvis raised some one from the dead with a song then you might have something.

And how do you know that the reports of jesus rising wasn't "false reports". You just claimed that 10 people saying so was good enough for you. Now it's not?
Doesn't that seem....hypocritical?


remember that the earliest tracing they can find for the earliest gospel is ~60-80 years after the death of Jesus.
what that means is if someone was to write a biography on Elvis somewhere between 2037-2057 and said that dozens of unamed unsourced people saw elvis walking among us after his death, THAT would be as much evidence as the bible provides for Jesus' resurection.

 

[edge]

It is not incorrect, it's over all meaning doesn’t change and that doesn't mean that God is wrong either, there isn't good enough evidence to state that and you refuse to accept the evidence that there is; spiritual, archeological or witnesses, and now geological.
This is a cold case in a sense and those witnesses and events and places have been recorded, the advantage for a believer today is that God works in our lives in Jesus Christ and that changes everything, so he is real, but that's to us, oh well.
The funny part is, I'm having fun doing it.

This makes absolutely no sense and does not actually address the point that FZ was making.

which was:

But if the right guy is evil, then hey, it's not our place to judge.

They already judged him on the cross?
All of us get judged because of that.
The one that defeated death for us by taking all sin onto himself, judges now, not us at this point, our turn is over.
What you question is, is he just?
Well he must be, he helps me along and many others, so what are you missing?


This is the one thing you are missing and I wrote this somewhere else but,

Faith is like prayer when a believer has a major problem and in your mind you think like this:
I could pray for it but I have faith that God/Jesus will provide in the most difficult situation.
As far as you can tell there is no way out of a bad situation and then all of a sudden because of faith alone an answer comes in the form of money for food for instance, a way out, that presents itself from seemingly nowhere, it makes you believe stronger and you give credit where credit is due by thanking God for the relief and praise the lord, because it is the only obvious intervention that can possibly explain it, so you suffer for the moment, with a conclusion that’s undeniably intervention by God, thanks and praise gets more done than you would believe.
It is known practices that get you to the goal you seek, but you refuse to seek so you don’t see, you don’t find.
The reason I say this is because I have been in that dead end path you all are caught up in, been there, done that, so I give it to Jesus, in my mind I say Jesus it is in your hands.
No Church building is necessary no pope is needed; only belief, you’ll be surprised.

So I look at the world and I see evidence in many forms that tell me something different.
Plus the advantage of having belief.
Since the bible and all cultures have a myth about it, (the flood) the question I ask myself is, is there anything to it?
That’s the way I look at it. Then Bam there it is.
Even I am in a circle of fire right now,... a lightning storm passed through here the other night and there are 57 fires in this County alone, (and many surrounding counties), the last I heard.
You’ll see the smoke in my video; yesterday and today light material in the form of ash is settling in the valley.
No earth quakes here today though.
The weather is getting freaky…..Hopefully the Israelis don’t do anything or anyone else.

But who knows?


I am going to upload more videos this will take some time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2bnE-k9Pw8

Remember there is only a total of maybe eight-feet to the bedrock under that two-foot glacial deposit maybe four.
This is what I see. 10 feet over all, at the highest maybe twelve.
If the Glaciers flowerd here it had to be on the first bedrock down since this is a valley.

 

[joobz]

It is not incorrect, it's over all meaning doesn’t change and that doesn't mean that God is wrong either, there isn't good enough evidence to state that and you refuse to accept the evidence that there is; spiritual, archeological or witnesses, and now geological.

So god committed genocide? God killed innocent children?

You keep answering in generalities and avoiding the uncomfortable specifics that is being asked. You then go so far as to claim that these specifics are proven (which they aren't) and therefore the generalities are true.

If the flood story is true, god is evil. If the flood story is false, then the bible isn't inerrant. these statements are logically consistent and do not do attempt to invalidate god's exsitence.

Let me put it another way: If god is real, and he did kill children, then god is evil and not worthy of worship.

This is a cold case in a sense and those witnesses and events and places have been recorded, the advantage for a believer today is that God works in our lives in Jesus Christ and that changes everything, so he is real, but that's to us, oh well.
The funny part is, I'm having fun doing it.

His condescending attitude is another give away.
It is his way to lead you away from the truth.

If condescension is an indication of a person whose beign deceitful, then christianity is DEFINITELY false.

QED

They already judged him on the cross?
All of us get judged because of that.
The one that defeated death for us by taking all sin onto himself, judges now, not us at this point, our turn is over.
What you question is, is he just?
Well he must be, he helps me along and many others, so what are you missing?

Again, you completely avoided the point that FZ made and went down an a path of non sequitor. Allow me to clarify FZ's statement (actually I did it already, so I'll just quote that text).

But if the right guy is evil, then hey, it's not our place to judge.

I must quote this again becuase[sp] of it's extreme pertinence to the current thread. Just to ensure that the subtely of your point isn't used as an excuse to ignore it, I am going to hammer it home.

Edge, in Foster's statement, it is clear that his "right guy" is god and that "not our place to judge" is your defense of god's genocide.

Can you not see how hypocritcal it is to claim to know what good and evil are and how the bible teaches such, but then ignore actions which are obviously evil when they are done by your god (actions which are labeled evil by god)?

I understand the loyalty you wish to hold regarding your faith. You do not want to feel like you betrayed something or someone. But it isn't betrayal to acknowlege the truth of something.

If your understanding of god doesn't permit him to do such a horrible act, than the simple answer is that the bible is wrong. Afterall, it was written by man, inspired by god.

 

[Foster Zygote]

A copper wire disproves your point as it also works bent into a Y shape, it is even better than a Y branch from a tree, it is so sensitive that it burns your hands and not from friction but from an electrical reaction.

It sounds like a copper wire and a $20 multi-meter could win you $1,000,000. Are you willing to prove your assertion before witnesses under controlled conditions?

 

[badnewsBH]

I must be doing something wrong on the multi-quote area (I'll look it up later), so I'll just post this out here.


Originally Posted by edge...

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I see Elvis in Vegas all the time, just go to a convention and you'll see multiple Elvis’s.

Ask his widow if he is dead.
She will tell you he is dead, don't believe the false reports. LOL

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Posted by joobs...

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If Elvis raised some one from the dead with a song then you might have something.
And how do you know that the reports of jesus rising wasn't "false reports". You just claimed that 10 people saying so was good enough for you. Now it's not?
Doesn't that seem....hypocritical?


remember that the earliest tracing they can find for the earliest gospel is ~60-80 years after the death of Jesus.
what that means is if someone was to write a biography on Elvis somewhere between 2037-2057 and said that dozens of unamed unsourced people saw elvis walking among us after his death, THAT would be as much evidence as the bible provides for Jesus' resurection.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Apparently, edge didn't see Penn and Teller's BS episode on the Bible. As they mentioned, people living today who knew Elvis are conflicted on stories about him. This link has the clip, starting at about 3:45...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ELee_oepJM

Now, if we don't have an agreed-upon rendition of the life of a world famous person who died within my lifetime, isn't it a bit presumptuous to claim that the Bible, a book more than two millennia old that has apparently been edited numerous times since it was originally compiled, cannot possibly contain some errors?

Of course, that doesn't begin to speak to the many inconsistencies in the text, but that's a whole different post. And more posts. And books. And research. It's so much easier to just post the clip.

 

[Paulhoff]

It sounds like a copper wire and a $20 multi-meter could win you $1,000,000. Are you willing to prove your assertion before witnesses under controlled conditions?

You must have missed my earlier post on edge.

http://www.randi.org/jr/032902.html

Paul

 

[HghrSymmetry]

Not all of us missed it. Some of us are still recovering from laugh induced kidney damage.

 

[X]

I wonder if we should ask a mod to split this thread?
It seems to have wondered into a discussion of dowsing and "is god good?".

It's also gotten very surreal.

Fascinating stuff, but I don't think it has much to do with the myth of the Noachian flood.

Does anyone else agree with me?


ETA: I also wonder if this post should be in forum management.

 

[Safe-Keeper]

I agree, if there's a mod with unending amounts of patience, it would be nice if he could somehow disentangle the posts and split the thread in three.

 

[Paulhoff]

I have been to the library that edge has been tested in many times and Randi has pointed out the books with the so-called gold that only became a problem when he failed.

Paul