No Fly zones over Libya?

[JihadJane]

QUOTE
The bombing of Libya will begin on or nearly to the day, of the eighth anniversary of the beginning of the destruction of Iraq, 19th March, in Europe. Libya too will be destroyed - its schools, education system, water, infrastructure, hospitals, municipal buildings. There will be numerous "tragic mistakes", "collateral damage", mothers, fathers, children, babies, grandparents, blind and deaf schools and on and on. And the wonders of the Roman remains and earlier, largely enduring and revered in all history's turmoils as Iraq, the nation's history - and humanity's, again as Iraq and Afghanistan, will be gone, for ever.

The infrastructure will be destroyed. The embargo will remain in place, thus rebuilding will be impossible. Britain, France and the US., will decide the country needs "stabilising", "help with reconstruction." They will move in, secure the oil installations and oil fields, the Libyan people will be an incidental inconvenience and quickly become "the enemy", "insurgents", be shot, imprisoned, tortured, abused - and a US friendly puppet "government" will be installed.

The invaders will award their companies rebuilding contracts, the money - likely taken from Libya's frozen assets without accounting - will vanish and the country will remain largely in ruins.

And the loudest cheerleaders for this, as Iraq, will be running round tv and radio stations in London, Europe and the US, then returning to their safe apartments and their UK/US/Europe paid tenures, in the knowledge that no bombs will be dropping on them. Their children will not be shaking uncontrollably and soiling themselves with terror at the sound of approaching planes.
/QUOTE

'Libya, Hypocrisy and Betrayal by the United Nations'

 

[JihadJane]

Since the two pilots defected to Malta several weeks ago, my guess is that Qaddafi took the brutal, but logical step of grabbing the families of pilots and holding them hostage so pilots wouldn't disobey orders. That is exactly how Kim Jong Il runs the prison camp called North Korea and what the Junta did to soldiers during the protests in Myanmar in 2007.

Also a technique favored by US and US-backed torturers in Iraq and Aghanistan and at the various "black" sites of the global US security gulag.

No-fly zone over the US anybody?

 

[McHrozni]

Things I thought you might be missing. Your understanding seems very simple and black-and-white.

The facts that alledgedly MI6 wanted to assasinate Quackdaffi and that he released some prisoners just prior to the unrest is certainly not worth mentioning, unless you're really desperate in trying to cover for him.

I can understand reasoning "he's better than the alternative, which is a perpetual civil war, making Libya a failed state", but not "he really isn't that terrible, look, he released some prisoners and was almost assasinated in 1996". I can also understand that he isn't all bad, but the same can be said about any dictator, you just have to look deep enough. That doesn't mean he is indeed the better choice, though. You see, not everyone who understands what you're trying to say will necessarily agree with you. If you can't understand this you probably shouldn't use a keyboard without supervision.

McHrozni

 

[FireGarden]

Am I against Libyans having this right? No, but I wonder how big a price they are going to pay for it - and if in the end they will really end up with it anyway.

The Libyans themselves have decided to try for it.
The things is, if you aim for the crown you had better not miss. Their initial attempts missed. Gaddafi reacted. The 'rebels' (I don't mind calling them that, I'm a Star Wars fan!) decided it would be better to continue the fight than to give in and accept their punishment. Indeed, Gaddafi's reaction resulted in people in his own camp jumping ship rather than be involved in his crimes.

That is the situation. We have not imposed anything on the rebels. They have asked for help, as is their right as Human beings. People have heard them and have offered help, pretty much of the type asked for (possibly not exactly. But the only complaints I've heard from the rebel side, so far, was regarding the late response to the attack on Benghazi from people who were fleeing the city having celebrated the night before the vote at the UN).

 

[JihadJane]

People have heard them and have offered help, pretty much of the type asked for

I'm surprised that you swallow this as the actual reason for military intervention in Libya.

 

[little grey rabbit]

The no drive zone:

On a road about 15km south of Benghazi – the road which leads to Ajdabiya – there five tanks which have been torn apart in an airstrike. A flatbed truck on which a tank was being carried is still in flames, a rocket launcher has been destroyed and half a dozen pickup trucks have been consumed by a fireball.

The tanks' turrets have been torn off the body and thrown maybe 20 metres, which gives some sense of the devastating force of the blast. On the ground there are more than a dozen bodies, some of them very badly mangled, others reduced to chunks of flesh. Locals say the airstrike happened at about 4am this morning.

Having said that it would nice to have pictures as well (not of the bodies).
The Guardian has this
http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images...00622861890/A-Libyan-man-holds-up-amm-007.jpg

But I think that is somewhere else. All three sides [Govt, Rebels and Nato] seem to be investing heavily in the information war.

Mysterious Government forces attack Benghazi then slink off into the desert unseen (where we are told smugly they will be sitting ducks). While captured tanks (captured weeks ago?) parade around Benghazi.

If I had been the on ground commander of those sitting ducks I would have dug in, inside a suburb.

 

[angrysoba]

QUOTE
The bombing of Libya will begin on or nearly to the day, of the eighth anniversary of the beginning of the destruction of Iraq, 19th March, in Europe. Libya too will be destroyed - its schools, education system, water, infrastructure, hospitals, municipal buildings. There will be numerous "tragic mistakes", "collateral damage", mothers, fathers, children, babies, grandparents, blind and deaf schools and on and on. And the wonders of the Roman remains and earlier, largely enduring and revered in all history's turmoils as Iraq, the nation's history - and humanity's, again as Iraq and Afghanistan, will be gone, for ever.

The infrastructure will be destroyed. The embargo will remain in place, thus rebuilding will be impossible. Britain, France and the US., will decide the country needs "stabilising", "help with reconstruction." They will move in, secure the oil installations and oil fields, the Libyan people will be an incidental inconvenience and quickly become "the enemy", "insurgents", be shot, imprisoned, tortured, abused - and a US friendly puppet "government" will be installed.

The invaders will award their companies rebuilding contracts, the money - likely taken from Libya's frozen assets without accounting - will vanish and the country will remain largely in ruins.

And the loudest cheerleaders for this, as Iraq, will be running round tv and radio stations in London, Europe and the US, then returning to their safe apartments and their UK/US/Europe paid tenures, in the knowledge that no bombs will be dropping on them. Their children will not be shaking uncontrollably and soiling themselves with terror at the sound of approaching planes.
/QUOTE

'Libya, Hypocrisy and Betrayal by the United Nations'

Oh God...

Felicity Arbuthnot

This is a yet-unfulfilled prediction which she gets a lot of facts wrong over:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/dec/29/aziz-faces-execution-in-iraq

 

[Virus]

I'm surprised that you swallow this as the actual reason for military intervention in Libya.

Wrong forum. Conspiracy theories that way ---->

 

[McHrozni]

I've just heard (no link yet) that Quacdaffi intends to arm over a million men and women in defence of Libya. I guess that could lead to a demonstration of the second ammendment in practice. I'm keeping my fingers crossed, this could substantially shorten the conflict ... or prolong it of course, but I'm trying to be an optimist

McHrozni

 

[FireGarden]

I'm surprised that you swallow this as the actual reason for military intervention in Libya.

Then you've forgotten who started this thread and not followed his argument.

I'm surprised you're willing to stand by and watch as things get worse in Libya. Even as they were already bad.

As for the other places that have been mentioned...
We are involved in Ivory Coast -- Ouattara remains there under UN protection:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12661409

There is an argument that we should be doing more. UN peacekeepers say they are overstrectched.

We should be involved in Bahrain and Yemen, though I don't think military action is appropriate there. But there should be more than just verbal condemnations and a call for restraint.

 

[FireGarden]

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-...itary-operations-as-arabs-back-offensive.html

Qatar’s Prime Minister Sheikh Hamad Bin Jasim Al Thani said the emirate will join the U.S., U.K., Canada, France and Italy against Libya, making it the first Arab country to commit military forces.

 

[Pardalis]

Jihad Jane, you do know that this is an international intervention, and it is backed by the Arab League?

 

[Arcade22]

Are you seriously arguing we shouldn't help the people of Libya because we're also not helping the people of Belarus?

No, i meant the exact opposite.

 

[Laeke]

Jihad Jane, you do know that this is an international intervention, and it is backed by the Arab League?

Well, to be precise, the Arab League said today that they favor the NFZ but not the strikes made yesterday. African Union is saying something akin.
I think it is somewhat lip service (they don't want to be perfectly aligned with the powers involved), since it was pretty clear that there would be strikes and they knew it.

The military action is pretty restrained right now: I think the immediate goal is to slow or stop military pressure on the insurgency. Enforcing a real cease fire would allow the rebels to exist politically in Libya and I guess the goal is to force Kadhafi to recognize their existence, at the very least. Any form of political process in an air tight autocracy would then subdue the regime far more efficiently than military action.

All this would stay strictly within the UN mandate and satisfy the "moderate" countries.

 

[Pardalis]

Well, to be precise, the Arab League said today that they favor the NFZ but not the strikes made yesterday.

How else does the Arab League expect the no-fly zone to be implemented?

Do they think the no-fly zone is just going to happen by itself? That's why they asked the West for help, they don't have the guns to do the job.

 

[Laeke]

How else does the Arab League expect the no-fly zone to be implemented?

Do they think the no-fly zone is just going to happen by itself? That's why they asked the West for help, they don't have the guns to do the job.

As I said, it is lip service. The international community may be lukewarm to the whole thing, but enforcing a NFZ & obtaining a cease fire has been agreed upon by the "international community", as best as we can tell with the institutions we have.

The current main participants in the military force are mostly "Atlantic" countries, but they do act within an international mandate.

 

[Pardalis]

If they renege we'll know what to do next time they ask for our help.

 

[JihadJane]

I'm surprised you're willing to stand by and watch as things get worse in Libya. Even as they were already bad.

Libya is a sovereign country, with 3.5% of global oil reserves, cheap to extract and refine, more than twice as much as the US.


I very much doubt that the current military intervention (=civilian casualties) will make things better. It is much more likely to make things worse, possibly leading to yet another quagmire of perpetual violence, opening up a fourth war theatre. Nor do I believe that the action is motivated by humanitarianism except that a "humanitarian" war is good for business.


Western special forces have been on the ground and involved with the armed insurrection from the start.

The usual players are seeking regime change, something they have wanted for a long time. Protecting civilians is a pretext.

 

[Pardalis]

So you would let Qhaddafi crush the resistance and go back to being a dictator?

Western special forces have been on the ground and involved with the armed insurrection from the start.

Got any proof, beside conspiracy websites?

Strange that you don't show any links this time.

 

[Pardalis]

No-fly zone over the US anybody?

You can always try. You and your army of strange internet revolutionaries.