No Fly zones over Libya?

JihadJane, you do know that this intervention is an international coalition, with the backing of the Arab League?

Yes?
 
Pardalis said:
And you want to let the oppressors stay in power forever, and never intervene?
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This is the great question. At the moment I have no answer. But you are right, in the end - once all other avenues are exhausted - intervention becomes inevitable.

The question seems to be were all avenues exhausted. It is usually very difficult to get police and soldiers to fire live ammunition on large bodies of peaceful, not threatening demonstrators. At least that was the experience in Egypt.

Why was the opposition not able to get such demonstrations in Tripoli? If the answer is that Libyan opinion is split - do we have the right to come down on one side or the other?
 
Wolf Blitzer on CNN just said the British PM just said they would not let Kadaffi win the war. What exactly that means not sure atm.
 
William Parcher said:
So I see. So there is no confirmation of what happened (other than a jet shot down)?

I suppose there are no real rules in the civil war situations. But isn't there some NATO restriction against flying the colors of your enemy? Or, like wearing your enemy's uniform to trick them.
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This situation is a bit problematic. You've got some citizens of a country fighting against some other citizens of the same country. On both sides some of those people are part of that country's military forces.

Who deserves the uniform? Who gets to wear the badge?
 
quadraginta said:
I had the impression they're using the same jets, as in ... if a Qaddafi pilot decides to join the rebels he takes the jet with him.

I don't think they decided to start rebelling a few weeks ago and then went out jet shopping.
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Since the two pilots defected to Malta several weeks ago, my guess is that Qaddafi took the brutal, but logical step of grabbing the families of pilots and holding them hostage so pilots wouldn't disobey orders. That is exactly how Kim Jong Il runs the prison camp called North Korea and what the Junta did to soldiers during the protests in Myanmar in 2007.
 
Pardalis said:
And you want to let the oppressors stay in power forever, and never intervene?
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That depends on the situation. I take a nationalist stance in foreign politics. If it's a rambunctious warmongering lunatic that's fiddling with nukes then yes I'm more than willing to intervene and bomb the crap out of him and his country, setting up a more stable and friendlier (to us) government in the process. If on the other hand it's a self-contained despot who is oppressing his people yet isn't a threat (to us) and has benign relations with us then i honestly don't care.

I just like to take glee when i see that people and organizations who are, at least in rhetoric, so willing to take up arms and die for "freedom" but in actually don't have the balls to do it. If you're so willing to die for your ideals then surely you'd be more than willing to allow people to suffer hardships because of that?
 
quadraginta said:
This situation is a bit problematic. You've got some citizens of a country fighting against some other citizens of the same country. On both sides some of those people are part of that country's military forces.

Who deserves the uniform? Who gets to wear the badge?
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Qaddafi blew up Pan Am flight 103 and has a long history of troublemaking, hard to imagine how the rebels could be much worse? I say arm them and kill the creep. Even Russia and China abstained in the vote and they are usually very wary of any Kum Bai Yah UN interference in sovereign nations affairs. Qaddafi's bizarre ravings on TV must have convinced them that the world is better off for everyone without that loose cannon.
 
JihadJane said:
The Empire of Oil.
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I don't think Putin is involved.


"Why is Obama in Rio when he's starting a war in Libya. He should really be at home polishing that peace prize." - Tweet via adamkokesh
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France fired the first shots. I don't think sarkozy is in rio.
 
Nightowl2548 said:
Qaddafi blew up Pan Am flight 103 and has a long history of troublemaking, hard to imagine how the rebels could be much worse? I say arm them and kill the creep. Even Russia and China abstained in the vote and they are usually very wary of any Kum Bai Yah UN interference in sovereign nations affairs. Qaddafi's bizarre ravings on TV must have convinced them that the world is better off for everyone without that loose cannon.
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I wasn't offering any judgments about either side. I was pointing out that under the circumstances the issues raised by being in one uniform or another is a little bit less relevant than when two different countries decide to go to war against each other.
 
Arcade22 said:
So you will only defend peoples "inalienable freedoms, rights and yadayadayada" when the government is on the brink of collapsing and unable to defend itself?

So much for the whole "we won't compromise freedom with stability" rhetoric. Apparently peoples "rights" are only worth something when it's convenient and just worthless ink on a paper otherwise. That's supposed to be the moral superiority of liberal-democratic nations, I've heard.
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Are you seriously arguing we shouldn't help the people of Libya because we're also not helping the people of Belarus?

Tell you what, I want you to tell the people in Libya that's why they are going to be slaughtered with no one coming to help them.
 
Travis said:
Are you seriously arguing we shouldn't help the people of Libya because we're also not helping the people of Belarus?

Tell you what, I want you to tell the people in Libya that's why they are going to be slaughtered with no one coming to help them.
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Day 1. 48 Libyans killed by American missiles.

USA, USA, USA....
 
Real people, Travis, real people with real families, whose only mistake was to live on a planet where the only superpower is run by vicious malevolent children.
 
BBC News...

0314: Abdel, a doctor in the town of Misrata, Libya, about 200km east of Tripoli, tells BBC World television that Gaddafi loyalists have been moving the bodies of people killed in clashes between rebels and government forces to sites that have been bombed by the coalition to make it appear they have died in the strikes.
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little grey rabbit said:
Real people, Travis, real people with real families, whose only mistake was to live on a planet where the only superpower is run by vicious malevolent children.
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You left out the bit that their other crime was living in a country in which questioning a leader will get you killed
 
little grey rabbit said:
Day 1. 48 Libyans killed by American missiles.

USA, USA, USA....
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This would be from Libyan TV that has also reported that the uprising is caused by al qaeda giving out drugs.

I would suggest finding a more cedible source. Soveit era pravda perhaps.
 
So you think your missiles won't kill anybody?

If you fire 120 loads of a half ton of explosives, even if your targeting is excellent and you kill no civilians, you have to expect deaths.
 
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