No Fly zones over Libya?

[Pardalis]

I very much doubt that the current military intervention (=civilian casualties)

And Qhaddafi's brutal suppression of the resistance didn't cause civilian casualties, I imagine?

 

[FireGarden]

Libya is a sovereign country, with 3.5% of global oil reserves, cheap to extract and refine, more than twice as much as the US.

That isn't an excuse to stand by and watch Gaddafi bomb and shell people.

I very much doubt that the current military intervention (=civilian casualties) will make things better. It is much more likely to make things worse, possibly leading to yet another quagmire of perpetual violence, opening up a fourth war theatre.

Time will tell.
The Kurdish areas of Iraq did better with the bit of independence they gained under a no-fly zone.

The motivation of the 'usual players' isn't something we can know for sure. If they overstep the limits of the requested help, then we can criticise them. But I don't think they have.

 

[JihadJane]

That isn't an excuse to stand by and watch Gaddafi bomb and shell people.

There are other options than military violence.


If there was an armed uprising in the US, encouraged by foreigners, what would the US government do? Would it talk to them or bomb them?

(Probably the latter.)

The motivation of the 'usual players' isn't something we can know for sure. If they overstep the limits of the requested help, then we can criticise them. But I don't think they have.

They were there long before help was requested. They helped create the situation they are now "helping".

~~~~~~~

Minister Louis Abdul-Haleem Farrakhan Muhammad warns Obama to be "careful how you manipulate the dissatisfaction in Libya and other parts of the Muslim world".

A great speech:

 

[WildCat]

Libya is a sovereign country, with 3.5% of global oil reserves, cheap to extract and refine, more than twice as much as the US.

Hmmm...

BP said its $900 million exploration and production deal with Libya's National Oil Co. remains valid and the terms are unchanged, despite the country's month-old crisis and the threat of sanctions from Western governments.

...Italy's Eni said Wednesday its own ties with Libya hadn't been compromised as a result of the unrest.

How does this square with your conspiracy theory? If anything, this action jeopardizes the operations of western oil companies in Libya.

 

[WildCat]

If there was an armed uprising in the US, encouraged by foreigners,

That's a mighty big "if", don't you think? There's a reason you don't see many significant armed uprisings against liberal democratic states. Uprisings against 2-bit tin pot dictators, however, are a dime a dozen.

 

[angrysoba]

The Arab League have now criticized the Allied airstrikes.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/blog/2011/mar/20/libya-air-strikes-live-updates#block-14

 

[Laeke]

There are other options than military violence.

Please share.

 

[FireGarden]

There are other options than military violence.

The tanks were rolling into Benghazi. Like it or not, with or without us, military violence was going to happen. Had been happening.

They were there long before help was requested. They helped create the situation they are now "helping".

I think events in Tunisia and Egypt have a lot to do with inspiring what the Libyans are doing. I find it hard to believe that America would have been behind those. It would mean getting rid of two of their Arab allies, including probably their best, in order to do what? Western companies already had oil deals, and they have risked those oil deals to take this action and to make the stand they made against Gaddafi before that. There's no guarantee that they will get better deals, or any deal at all. Iraqi oil contracts didn't all go to America and Britain.

Minister Louis Abdul-Haleem Farrakhan Muhammad warns Obama to be "careful how you manipulate the dissatisfaction in Libya and other parts of the Muslim world".

A great speech:

A well delivered speech. But... The point above is as unconvincing in the speech as in your post.

As I said before, I'll criticise if this goes beyond the help that's been asked for. Obviously if the French, British, US, etc commit a bloodbath in order to avoid a bloodbath then the whole thing will have been *********** stupid. But those are 'ifs'.

 

[dudalb]

There are downsides - no political parties, no al Qaeda, no CIA stuff, no foreign oil companies, no meddling pro-democracy NGOs, no splitting the country in half. The punishments for some of these things are fierce.

With "downsides" being used sarcastically, something tells me that Caustic Logic has "issues" with democracy.

 

[McHrozni]

The Arab League have now criticized the Allied airstrikes.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/blog/2011/mar/20/libya-air-strikes-live-updates#block-14

How unexpected.

They were one of the key reasons why the air strikes were needed. If they put pressure on Quackdaffi from day 1, they would probably be unnecessary. Now, however, anything less than air strikes is completely useless.

As a side note, an interesting strategy for the rebels right now would be to call on all foreign mercenaries to desert, stating they will honor their contracts once they defeat Quackdaffi. It would only be valid for contracts made prior to 20th march, obviously. They could also offer bounties for any equipment brought.

McHrozni

 

[JihadJane]

Day 1. 48 Libyans killed by American missiles.

USA, USA, USA....

This would be from Libyan TV that has also reported that the uprising is caused by al qaeda giving out drugs.

I would suggest finding a more cedible source. Soveit era pravda perhaps.

Russia says Western strikes kill Libyan civilians

"[Foreign Ministry spokesman AlexanderLukashevich] said 48 civilians were reported to have been killed and 150 wounded in the air strikes, figures that matched those given early on Sunday by Libyan state TV. He said strikes had destroyed a medical facility, roads and bridges."

~~~~~~~

"The Arab League chief said on Sunday that Arabs did not want military strikes by Western powers that hit civilians when the League called for a no-fly zone over Libya.

In comments carried by Egypt's official state news agency, Secretary-General Amr Moussa also said he was calling for an emergency Arab League meeting to discuss the situation in the Arab world and particularly Libya.

'What is happening in Libya differs from the aim of imposing a no-fly zone, and what we want is the protection of civilians and not the bombardment of more civilians,' he said"

Arab League head says wanted no-fly zone not bombs

 

[William Parcher]

Libya/Gaddy has ordered a self-imposed ceasefire beginning at 2100 local time.

There are many recent reports of pro-Gaddy snipers and tanks wreaking havoc in downtown Misurata with some reports saying much of the central city has been leveled by tank shelling over the past few hours.

 

[Laeke]

Libya/Gaddy has ordered a self-imposed ceasefire beginning at 2100 local time.

I read, but info from Libya is blurry, that this ceasefire was announced /scrapthat/by the army and not the regime. Still to be confirmed though./scrapthat/ EDIT: Or with no mention of Kadhafi himself. Which may or not be significant.

Someone in the French Ministry of Defence pretty much outlined what aims we are pursuing:
Link in French (maybe it can be helpful: it is the blog of a french journalist specialized in army and defense)

The basic idea is that the Lybian army must go back to its barracks and that a political process with the opposition must take place.

 

[geni]

There are other options than military violence.

Tried them. They didn't work.

If there was an armed uprising in the US, encouraged by foreigners, what would the US government do? Would it talk to them or bomb them?

(Probably the latter.)

Well bombs hadn't been invented last time someone tried that. I seem to recall that the war in question was eventualy settled by treaty.

They were there long before help was requested. They helped create the situation they are now "helping".

There is a slight lack of evidence of this. While no one liked Gaddafi it was generaly found that it is less effort to put up with him rather than do something about him.

 

[Laeke]

They were there long before help was requested. They helped create the situation they are now "helping".

Oh about that.
Someone should tell Kadhafi, since he said several times that it was all the doing of Al Quaida drugging young Libyans.

JihadJane, sorry to repeat myself (I will do it only once) but what other way than military actions were possible in the present particular case that were not tried?

 

[geni]

Russia says Western strikes kill Libyan civilians

"[Foreign Ministry spokesman AlexanderLukashevich] said 48 civilians were reported to have been killed and 150 wounded in the air strikes, figures that matched those given early on Sunday by Libyan state TV. He said strikes had destroyed a medical facility, roads and bridges."

While I'm prepared to accept that Russia has a certain expertise when it comes to killing civilians with air-strikes I draw your attention to the word "reported". In this case reported is by Libyan state TV which means sod all.

The Arab League chief said on Sunday that Arabs did not want military strikes by Western powers that hit civilians when the League called for a no-fly zone over Libya.

Don't worry Gaddafi is planning to arm his people. That makes them not civilians.

In comments carried by Egypt's official state news agency, Secretary-General Amr Moussa also said he was calling for an emergency Arab League meeting to discuss the situation in the Arab world and particularly Libya.

So what you are saying is that a bunch of dictators are going to meet in one place that is announced in advance.

'What is happening in Libya differs from the aim of imposing a no-fly zone, and what we want is the protection of civilians and not the bombardment of more civilians,' he said[/I]"


Arab League head says wanted no-fly zone not bombs

Fortunately the UN resolution is a bit broader.

 

[dudalb]

Libya/Gaddy has ordered a self-imposed ceasefire beginning at 2100 local time.

There are many recent reports of pro-Gaddy snipers and tanks wreaking havoc in downtown Misurata with some reports saying much of the central city has been leveled by tank shelling over the past few hours.

We saw on Friday what a Gaddy "Cease Fire" is worth.

I am expecting some announcments from the LIbyan government that will bring back memoris of the Iraqi Information Minister back in 2003.

 

[Virus]

How else does the Arab League expect the no-fly zone to be implemented?

Do they think the no-fly zone is just going to happen by itself? That's why they asked the West for help, they don't have the guns to do the job.

They've got the guns. On paper they have advanced, modern armed forces. Saudi Arabia spends a fortune on the best and latest gear. Egypt has a modern high-tech military. But all that's on paper. In reality, Arab armies are paper tigers.

 

[William Parcher]

BBC BREAKING NEWS: Loud blasts have been heard in Tripoli, witnesses say, and a plume of smoke was seen rising from the area near the compound of Col Gaddafi.

 

[William Parcher]

I am expecting some announcments from the LIbyan government that will bring back memoris of the Iraqi Information Minister back in 2003.

Yup, already happening. BBC News...

Libyan state television is also quoting the military as saying its troops have "downed the barbaric, unjust, Crusading enemy's war jets".