No Fly zones over Libya?

little grey rabbit said:
So you think your missiles won't kill anybody?

If you fire 120 loads of a half ton of explosives, even if your targeting is excellent and you kill no civilians, you have to expect deaths.
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Well you seem to think that more than half the missiles didn't kill anyone. As for killing non civilians thats not normaly considered to be a problem.
 
lionking said:
So how many in Gaddafi's cheer squad? You LGR. Any others?
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Count me in. I only know a few things about Gaddafi's regime:
They run a different and unique system over there we're led to ignore any potential good thing about. Can anyone name a single good thing to come out of Gaddafi's Libya? Of course not, but they exist. No one's told you.

Please ignore David Rothscum's analysis of the reasons.

I know in my own opinion, 99.5% sure, they were framed for Lockerbie, quite possibly other of the white-people-angering atrocities (UTA 772, Yvonne Fletcher, LaBelle disco, etc.), if not all of them. They've been hated by Wall Street and CIA types all along for some reason I don't think we've been full briefed on, relentlessly smeared, exagerrated reports of human rights abuses, constant insults and mockery, mass media echo chamber, etc.

I know that whatever degree of oppression, mass murder, genocide, ritual child rape, whatever, the nation has also classed consistently among the highest in the world and no. 1 in Africa in areas such as
low illiteracy
low malnutrition
high per-captia GDP distributed fairly
free education
free healthcare
low incarceration rate
high levels of local autonomy and citizen involvement
etc ...

There are downsides - no political parties, no al Qaeda, no CIA stuff, no foreign oil companies, no meddling pro-democracy NGOs, no splitting the country in half. The punishments for some of these things are fierce.

So, what the hell? They don't get to vote for a president every four years? I'm no expert on these things, but are all of you that much better informed? Or just more sure of yoursleves because when you turn on the news, all of them seem pretty convinced?

And I really think at least one of the highly distressing recent Gaddafi massacres was carried out by the rebels we're protecting and blamed on Gaddafi. Libyans know about framing Gaddafi, and it's the long history of being stuck with the fallout, more than anything perhaps, that fuels their intense desire to be rid of this guy and his system that keep getting them in trouble.

We set all that up, so I suppose we'd better heed their calls now. But as we pour down that chute, doesn't anyone notice how total, and simplistic, and cartoonish the rabid hatred and disgust we're made to feel towards Gaddafi is?

I'm not saying I've got the whole picture and Gaddafi is some total hero and the West is total villain - but clearly a lot of others have incomplete pictures too, and so maybe we can all help each other fill in those gaps.
 
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Caustic Logic said:
Count me in. I only know a few things about Gaddafi's regime
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Wait, you say we should count you in as a supporter of the Qhaddafi regime, and in the same breath you claim not knowing alot about it?

They run a different and unique system over there
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It's called a dictatorship.

No one's told you.

Please ignore David Rothscum's analysis of the reasons.
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Will do. "Rothscum" sound like a quack. His blog seems filled with woo-woo beliefs, anti-vaccination BS and other conspiracy theories.

You prefer to believe some anynomous quack on the internet?

I prefer to believe credible legitimate human rights NGOs, and they're unanimous about Libya.
 
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I think even if everything goes exactly as Obama wants, this is going to end badly.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/ts_nm/us_libya

Libyan state television said 48 people had been killed and 150 wounded in the allied air strikes. It also said there had been a fresh wave of strikes on Tripoli early on Sunday.
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You do not bomb someplace to just take out anti-aircraft sites without killing people. If those numbers are true, that might be 48 Libyan families who are missing a father or a son or a mother. That is 48 families who will not let this be forgotten. This is 48 deaths of people who only crime is that they are patriotic and believe in their nation and think changing it into some unknown system is not favorable.

That is just one thing that is not good. Another thing that will not be good in the long run is that now people can point to outside influence as being the force that created change instead of the rebels or the people of Libya.

Another thing that is not good is that we are rapidly going to be getting in over our heads. How many Mid East countries not are we going to be committed to bomb because the government there are fighting so-called "rebels"? Where do we draw the line before we become worse than the fictional puppets in Team America: World Police?

Obama is being short-sighted and stupid. It is the fault of the American public for voting into office a community organizer with no military experience who, according to Bob Woodward, ended up constantly asking Colin Powel what the hell to do in Afghanistan because he was clueless. How is that "Hope" and "Change" working out for us now? Obama takes in advice from those around him and comes up with an average of their suggestions. The problem is that his advisors are not accountable. Also, the average is often the worst of any possible suggestion.

I wonder how many people support Obama just because he has a "D" beside his name and if W had done this they would be marching in protest in the street across the USA.
 
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Caustic Logic said:
I know that whatever degree of oppression, mass murder, genocide, ritual child rape, whatever, the nation has also classed consistently among the highest in the world and no. 1 in Africa in areas such as
low illiteracy
low malnutrition
high per-captia GDP distributed fairly
free education
free healthcare
low incarceration rate
high levels of local autonomy and citizen involvement
etc ...
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Interesting way of trivialising opression and murder, really. Between 10 and 20 percent of Libyan work force is employed in state security. Public executions are common and broadcast on TV. Libya has consistently ranked as the worst violator of human rights in Africa. In 1996, Libyan state extrajurdicaly executed some 1270 inmates, which kind of puts your "low incarceration rate" in perspective, I suppose ...

Tell me something. Just why do you think the rebels took up arms to fight against the well armed regime? Did the CIA pay them, or do you have a less stupid reason?

McHrozni
 
Bill Thompson said:
Obama is being short-sighted and stupid. It is the fault of the American public for voting into office a community organizer with no military experience who, according to Bob Woodward, ended up constantly asking Colin Powel what the hell to do in Afghanistan because he was clueless. How is that "Hope" and "Change" working out for us now? Obama takes in advice from those around him and comes up with an average of their suggestions. The problem is that his advisors are not accountable. Also, the average is often the worst of any possible suggestion.

I wonder how many people support Obama just because he has a "D" beside his name and if W had done this they would be marching in protest in the street across the USA.
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Yes, it is true that Bush was a Republican and Obama is a Democrat but remember that the Iraq War was quite a different operation to a no-fly zone over Libya. Otherwise aren't you asking why people see any differences between a Republican orange and a Democratic apple?

Besides, this operation is not just an American one and neither was the Iraq War. Bush's partner in that was, of course, Tony Blair a Labour PM. This time round, Obama's partners are David Cameron, a Tory PM and Sarkozy, the French President.

For a better comparison maybe YOU can provide examples of those who opposed George Bush I's no-fly zones over Iraq who are now supporting Obama's no-fly zones. There may be many of them. I don't know. But compare like with like.

But seeing as you are making this point about people being partisan about the no-fly zones you seem to be running the risk of publically projecting your own prejudices. As it happens, the Bush administration was almost unanimously supported in the war in Afghanistan, while Obama seems to be getting a lot of heat, ironically from you. Did you support or oppose Bush when he went into Afghanistan? Is your lack of support for Obama in Afghanistan now simply because, well... he has a "D" beside his name?
 
Caustic Logic said:
Count me in. I only know a few things about Gaddafi's regime:
They run a different and unique system over there we're led to ignore any potential good thing about. Can anyone name a single good thing to come out of Gaddafi's Libya? Of course not, but they exist. No one's told you.

Please ignore David Rothscum's analysis of the reasons.

I know in my own opinion, 99.5% sure, they were framed for Lockerbie, quite possibly other of the white-people-angering atrocities (UTA 772, Yvonne Fletcher, LaBelle disco, etc.), if not all of them. They've been hated by Wall Street and CIA types all along for some reason I don't think we've been full briefed on, relentlessly smeared, exagerrated reports of human rights abuses, constant insults and mockery, mass media echo chamber, etc.

I know that whatever degree of oppression, mass murder, genocide, ritual child rape, whatever, the nation has also classed consistently among the highest in the world and no. 1 in Africa in areas such as
low illiteracy
low malnutrition
high per-captia GDP distributed fairly
free education
free healthcare
low incarceration rate
high levels of local autonomy and citizen involvement
etc ...

There are downsides - no political parties, no al Qaeda, no CIA stuff, no foreign oil companies, no meddling pro-democracy NGOs, no splitting the country in half. The punishments for some of these things are fierce.

So, what the hell? They don't get to vote for a president every four years? I'm no expert on these things, but are all of you that much better informed? Or just more sure of yoursleves because when you turn on the news, all of them seem pretty convinced?

And I really think at least one of the highly distressing recent Gaddafi massacres was carried out by the rebels we're protecting and blamed on Gaddafi. Libyans know about framing Gaddafi, and it's the long history of being stuck with the fallout, more than anything perhaps, that fuels their intense desire to be rid of this guy and his system that keep getting them in trouble.

We set all that up, so I suppose we'd better heed their calls now. But as we pour down that chute, doesn't anyone notice how total, and simplistic, and cartoonish the rabid hatred and disgust we're made to feel towards Gaddafi is?

I'm not saying I've got the whole picture and Gaddafi is some total hero and the West is total villain - but clearly a lot of others have incomplete pictures too, and so maybe we can all help each other fill in those gaps.
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The Conspiracy Theory forums are that way >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
 
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/3478243/Jet-shot-down-over-Libya.html

He spoke just hours after a Libyan ceasefire was broken when a fighter jet was blown out of the skies above the rebel-held city of Benghazi.

Asked if military action was about to begin, Mr Cameron said: "Gaddafi has made this happen."
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That's the interpretation that matters, I suppose. The actual truth might come out later.

The Conspiracy Theory forums are that way >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
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Thanks, I know the place well. And my referring to my beliefs and well-founded conclusions, in the current context of why I'm not all gung-ho for Gaddafi's blood, are right here.
 
The Sun's commentry is always good for a laugh:

In a demand backed by Arab states, the three leaders told the Libyan Mad Dog to:

HALT all attacks on civilians.

STOP the assault on Benghazi.

PULL his troops back from onslaughts on rebels in Adjadbiya, Misrata and Zawiyah.

RESTORE water, electricity and gas to all areas, and ALLOW in humanitarian assistance for the people of Libya.
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And on their characteristically restrained editorial page:

IF the world had listened to David Cameron and The Sun, the head of Libyan tyrant Muammar Gaddafi could have been on a spike by now.
But they didn't. President Obama dithered and dallied. The Germans hid under their feather duvets.
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http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/sun_says/244723/The-Sun-Says.html
 
McHrozni said:
Interesting way of trivialising opression and murder, really.
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Now, did you catch the last part of my comment? I appreciate your additions to my understanding, which I admit is vague. And I see that you appreciate my contributions to this lively and evolving discussion.

Between 10 and 20 percent of Libyan work force is employed in state security. Public executions are common and broadcast on TV. Libya has consistently ranked as the worst violator of human rights in Africa.
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I don't know enough to deny all these things or try to explain them. I can only say it's possible for a relative few to be treated quite poorly while most enjoy a better life than in other places. I'm sure the state is pretty despotic. But are the points you responded to as "trivializing" these realities true, or not? Could we both be right?

In 1996, Libyan state extrajurdicaly executed some 1270 inmates, which kind of puts your "low incarceration rate" in perspective, I suppose ...
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For that year, certainly so. But times change, nearly 20 years on. Interesting that particular number - surely a dramatic high point - pops out at you. 1996 is the year a large al Qaeda cell in Libya, with the collusion of MI6, tried to assassinate Gaddafi. David Shayler said it, but strangely, it's been borne out and deserves its place in current events, not CTs.

Lately the trend was to rehabilitating the LIFG types in a program spearheaded by Saif Gaddafi. 110 prisoners were released just before the day of rage, incidentally.

Tell me something. Just why do you think the rebels took up arms to fight against the well armed regime?
Click to expand...

Should they fight a well-armed regime without taking up arms?

Did the CIA pay them, or do you have a less stupid reason?

McHrozni
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As for the thinking that led so many military officers, random rebels, diplomats, etc. to all defect at the same time, with European help building slowly (it's been days!), and just why - behind the scenes promises, etc. - Now that might get me dragged into CT territory. I could only speculate on things I don't know much about.

But native motives and passions are clearly the muscle of all this, if not the brain. And these vary person to person. A lot of the people currently shooting want an Islamic caliphate of Bahrain, for example. Some want a secular modern democracy, some want their brother out of prison. They seem to be on the winning side now, so some will just be opportunistic. And so on.

What do you think?
 
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Caustic Logic said:
I don't know enough to deny all these things or try to explain them. I can only say it's possible for a relative few to be treated quite poorly while most enjoy a better life than in other places. I'm sure the state is pretty despotic. But are the points you responded to as "trivializing" these realities true, or not? Could we both be right?
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Not really, no. You seem to be both claiming the state is despotic and that the citizens have substantial local autonomy. That's pretty contradictory you know.

For that year, certainly so. But times change, nearly 20 years on.
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So you're claiming that Libyan state dramatically changed since then? Evidence? All I see with the hindsight was attempts to get on the good side of western powers, to prevent an intervention like what we're seeing now. It very nearly worked, too.

Interesting that particular number - surely a dramatic high point - pops out at you. 1996 is the year a large al Qaeda cell in Libya, with the collusion of MI6, tried to assassinate Gaddafi. David Shayler said it, but strangely, it's been borne out and deserves its place in current events, not CTs.
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Relevance?

Lately the trend was to rehabilitating the LIFG types in a program spearheaded by Saif Gaddafi. 110 prisoners were released just before the day of rage, incidentally.
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Releasing prisoners is a time-honed method of subduing unrest. Also, relevance, please?

Should they fight a well-armed regime without taking up arms?
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No, Caustic logic, the fact they took up arms to fight a well-armed regime demonstrates how desperate were they. People don't do that unless their desperation is greater than the risk of getting killed (or worse) by the regime. You seem to be implying that they were relatively well-off, the mere fact this grew into a civil war shows you're wrong.

As for the thinking that led so many military officers, random rebels, diplomats, etc. to all defect at the same time, with European help building slowly (it's been days!), and just why - behind the scenes promises, etc. - Now that might get me dragged into CT territory. I could only speculate on things I don't know much about.
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So it was foreign intelligence, which managed to convict a large portion of Libyan diplomatic core and several high ranking officers to defect or desert, in order to facilitate an armed rebellion, which then lacked leadership and international confidence to be able to govern Libya better than Quackdaffi, and failed to supply them with arms they would need to successfully fight the regime? They also stood by almost idly as the regime reorganized and began pounding the rebels into the ground for almost two weeks, before resorting to an expensive armed intervention.

It might make an adequate graphic novel for 10-13 year old audience, but no more. Either that or a standard CT at any rate.

What do you think?
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I think you're wrong in most accounts.

McHrozni
 
Caustic Logic said:
Count me in. I only know a few things about Gaddafi's regime:
They run a different and unique system over there we're led to ignore any potential good thing about. Can anyone name a single good thing to come out of Gaddafi's Libya? Of course not, but they exist. No one's told you.

Please ignore David Rothscum's analysis of the reasons.

I know in my own opinion, 99.5% sure, they were framed for Lockerbie, quite possibly other of the white-people-angering atrocities (UTA 772, Yvonne Fletcher, LaBelle disco, etc.), if not all of them. They've been hated by Wall Street and CIA types all along for some reason I don't think we've been full briefed on, relentlessly smeared, exagerrated reports of human rights abuses, constant insults and mockery, mass media echo chamber, etc.

I know that whatever degree of oppression, mass murder, genocide, ritual child rape, whatever, the nation has also classed consistently among the highest in the world and no. 1 in Africa in areas such as
low illiteracy
low malnutrition
high per-captia GDP distributed fairly
free education
free healthcare
low incarceration rate
high levels of local autonomy and citizen involvement
etc ...

There are downsides - no political parties, no al Qaeda, no CIA stuff, no foreign oil companies, no meddling pro-democracy NGOs, no splitting the country in half. The punishments for some of these things are fierce.
Click to expand...

What about freedom? What about the joy and the warm rush of happiness one gets when you put a tick alongside the conservative or progressive ticket every three or four years?

Am I against Libyans having this right? No, but I wonder how big a price they are going to pay for it - and if in the end they will really end up with it anyway.

Having said that: the House always win. If we are determined to do regime change and are not worried about the cost, I think we have the base to achieve it now, whether it takes a week or several years. And I am sure we will manage to write our history praising our leadership, our courage, our vision, our implacable determination to do what is right and our all round heroism.

Sanctions, arms supply (perhaps covert) to the rebels, constant bombing of anything that looks military, degradation of utilities like TV (propaganda wing of the government), phone system (control and command system), any industry (dual technology potential), freeze assets (they belong to the free democratic Libya) and reduce the country to depend on food aid and dole out the barest minimum of health supplies - the same old script.

Hurrah for us!
 
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