Merged Near Death Experience Study

[Akhenaten]

On Youtube you can find a lot of witnesses talking about their own NDE.

That's actually an argument against the likelihood of them being real.

There are a lot of people with their own personal story. And most of them have had similar experiences. The subjective experience was similar. That's not what we define as an hallucination. A common experience must be real.

Therefore flying saucers, figboot, psychic surgery, spoon bending and the Kraken are all real phenomena.

 

[Pixel42]

There are a lot of people with their own personal story. And most of them have had similar experiences. The subjective experience was similar.

That also describes sleep paralysis, which is a very common real experience.

That's not what we define as an hallucination. A common experience must be real

Are you then claiming that the hallucinations that accompany sleep paralysis must also be real?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep_paralysis

 

[MaartenVergu]

[QUOTE="Pixel42]Are you then claiming that the hallucinations that accompany sleep paralysis must also be real?[/QUOTE]

If the content of the hallucinations during sleep paralaysis is universal, than you are talking about an objective reality and not a subjective one, in my opinion.
What is the content of hallucinations that accompany sleep paralysis?

 

[Pixel42]

If the content of the hallucinations during sleep paralaysis is universal, than you are talking about an objective reality and not a subjective one, in my opinion.

Then your opinion differs from that of professionals who have studied the phenomenon in depth.

What is the content of hallucinations that accompany sleep paralysis?

From the link already given:

Hypnagogic and hypnopompic visions are symptoms commonly experienced during episodes of sleep paralysis. Some scientists have proposed this condition as an explanation for reports of alien abductions and ghostly encounters.[7] Some suggest that reports of alien abductions are related to sleep paralysis rather than to temporal lobe lability.[8] There are three main types of these visions that can be linked to pathologic neurophysiology.[9] These include the belief that there is an intruder in the room, the incubus, and vestibular motor sensations.[10]

Many people who experience sleep paralysis are struck with a deep sense of terror when they sense a menacing presence in the room while paralyzed—hereafter referred to as the intruder. A neurological interpretation of this phenomenon is that it results from a hyper-vigilant state created in the midbrain.[9] More specifically, the emergency response is activated in the brain when individuals wake up paralyzed and feel vulnerable to attack.[10] This helplessness can intensify the effects of the threat response well above the level typical of normal dreams, which could explain why such visions during sleep paralysis are so vivid.[10] Normally the threat-activated vigilance system is a protective mechanism to differentiate between dangerous situations and to determine whether the fear response is appropriate.[10] Some hypothesize that the threat vigilance system is evolutionarily biased to interpret ambiguous stimuli as dangerous, because "erring on the side of caution" increases survival chances.[10] This hypothesis could account for why the threatening presence is perceived as being evil.[10] The amygdala is heavily involved in the threat activation response mechanism, which is implicated in both intruder and incubus SP visions.[3] The specific pathway through which the threat-activated vigilance system acts is not well understood. One possibility is that the thalamus receives sensory information and sends it on the amygdala, which regulates emotional experience. Another is that the amygdaloid complex, anterior cingulate, and the structures in the pontine tegmentum interact to create the vision.[9] It is also highly possible that SP hallucinations could result from a combination of these. The anterior cingulate has an extensive array of cortical connections to other cortical areas, which enables it to integrate the various sensations and emotions into the unified sensorium we experience.[9] The amygdaloid complex helps us interpret emotional experience and act appropriately.[11] This is conducive to directing the individual's attention to the most pertinent stimuli in a potentially dangerous situation so that the individual can take self-protective measures.[11] Proper amygdaloid complex function requires input from the thalamus, which creates a thalamoamygdala pathway capable of bypassing the intense scrutiny of incoming stimuli to enable quick responses in a potentially life-threatening situation.[9][11] Typically, situations assessed as non-threatening are disregarded. In sleep paralysis, however, those pathways can become over-excited and move into a state of hyper-vigilance in which the mind perceives every external stimulus as a threat. The hyper-vigilance response can lead to the creation of endogenous stimuli that contribute to the perceived threat.[9]

A similar process may explain the experience of the incubus presence, with slight variations, in which the evil presence is perceived by the subject to be attempting to suffocate them, either by pressing heavily on the chest or by strangulation.[10] A neurological explanation hold that this results from a combination of the threat vigilance activation system and the muscle paralysis associated with sleep paralysis that removes voluntary control of breathing.[10] Several features of REM breathing patterns exacerbate the feeling of suffocation.[10] These include shallow rapid breathing, hypercapnia, and slight blockage of the airway, which is a symptom prevalent in sleep apnea patients.[9] According to this account, the subject attempts to breath deeply and finds herself unable to do so, creating a sensation of resistance, which the threat-activated vigilance system interprets as an unearthly being sitting on her chest, threatening suffocation.[9] The sensation of entrapment causes a feedback loop when the fear of suffocation increases as a result of continued helplessness, causing the subject to struggle to end the SP episode.[10]

The intruder and incubus experiences highly correlate with one another, and moderately correlate with the third characteristic experience, vestibular-motor disorientation, also known as out-of-body experiences,[10] which differ from the other two in not involving the threat activation vigilance system.[3] Under normal conditions, medial and vestibular nuclei, cortical, thalamic, and cerebellar centers coordinate things such as head and eye movement, and orientation in space.[9] A neurological hypothesis is that in sleep paralysis, these mechanisms—which usually coordinate body movement and provide information on body position—become activated and, because there is no actual movement, induce a floating sensation.[10] The vestibular nuclei in particular has been identified as being closely related to dreaming during the REM stage of sleep.[9] According to this hypothesis, vestibular-motor disorientation, unlike the intruder and incubus experiences, arise from completely endogenous sources of stimuli.[10]

 

[steenkh]

If the content of the hallucinations during sleep paralaysis is universal, than you are talking about an objective reality and not a subjective one, in my opinion.

If a lot of people think they were held down by a demon, it does not mean that they were actually held down by a demon, but that the same kind of stimulus can give different people the feeling that they are held down by a demon.

 

[tsig]

If the content of the hallucinations during sleep paralaysis is universal, than you are talking about an objective reality and not a subjective one, in my opinion.
What is the content of hallucinations that accompany sleep paralysis?

The objective reality is that all human brains are wired pretty much the same.

 

[MaartenVergu]

The objective reality is that all human brains are wired pretty much the same.

Non sequitur. It's not because people are wired the same, that the content of their dreams/hallucinations is the same.

 

[Pixel42]

Non sequitur. It's not because people are wired the same, that the content of their dreams/hallucinations is the same.

The evidence says otherwise.

Did you not read the quote from the article on sleep paralysis which explained that the reason why the hallucinations people experience in that state are so similar is (essentially) because of the way their brains are all wired?

People close to death also experience the same kind of changes in brain function/chemistry, so you would again expect any dreams/hallucinations they experience to be similar.

 

[MaartenVergu]

We are wired the same, does it mean that we witness the same forum? Non sequitur. The observed forum has nothing to do with the similiraties between our wired brains.

[QUOTE="Pixel42]The evidence says otherwise.[/QUOTE]
Sleepparalysis does not convince me. Because I had sleepparalysis many times and it was different each time. No same content.
Show me the evidence of people with the same dreamcontent or exactly the same hallucinations "because they are wired the same".


My point is: it doesn't exclude the possibility that they witness a real existing dimension.
It depends on what you philosophically call 'real'. People who witness an NDE were saying that it was more real than what we experience while we are awake.
So, what do you call 'real'?

 

[Pixel42]

Show me the evidence of people with the same dreamcontent or exactly the same hallucinations because they are wired the same.

Thousands of people who have experienced sleep paralysis (including me) have reported perceiving the presence of an evil intruder, often pressing down on them, when no evidence of such an intruder (or any way in which it could have entered the room) is afterwards found. Read the article (and its references) you have already been pointed to for the all the evidence you could possibly require.

My point is: it doesn't exclude the possibility that they witness a real existing dimension.

The possibility that there really is an evil intruder in the room whilst someone who is experiencing sleep paralysis perceives such an intruder cannot be excluded, true. It's clearly not the explanation in the vast majority of cases, however.

 

[MaartenVergu]

Yes, when people experience the same 'demon in the room'. Maybe it's a reality instead of a dream.
How do you distinguish a dream from reality? Or a subjective experience from an objective reality?
The distinction is: when more people experience the same thing independently from one another.
You need to have a demarcation criterium.

By the way: 'an intruder or evil intruder in the room' is an interpretation of an observation.
I had sleepparalisys and the presence was not evil at all. It touched me and flew through my body. I felt this. It didn't harm me at all.
I was very calm and relaxed while I could not move.

 

[Pixel42]

Forget your sleepparalysis example. I had sleepparalysis many times: it was different every time.

You cannot dismiss a vast wealth of evidence just because your own personal experience was different. If it was very different it's possible you weren't even experiencing the same thing.

So no, I'm not going to forget the sleep paralysis example. It is extremely relevant to this discussion, and trying to wave it away just makes you look silly.

 

[MaartenVergu]

Ok, I changed my post.

Here I write it again:

'an intruder or evil intruder in the room' is an interpretation of an observation.
I had sleepparalisys and the presence was not evil at all. It touched me and flew through my body. I felt this. It didn't harm me at all.
I was very calm and relaxed while I could not move. And my eyes were staring to a fixed point. I couldn't move them while I was hearing and feeling noises and moves in the room and on the sheets of my bed.

Yes, when people experience the same 'demon(s) in the room' (interpretation), maybe it's a reality instead of a dream.

How do you distinguish a dream from reality? Or a subjective experience from an objective reality?
The distinction is: when more people experience the same thing independently from one another.
You need to have a demarcation criterium.

 

[MaartenVergu]

Suppose that this reality is only observable when you are in a certain state of mind.
Sleepparalaysis gives you an awareness of this other dimension.
How can you find evidence of these beings when you are not in that state of mind?
The common experience is the evidence of such a dimension.

 

[Pixel42]

How do you distinguish a dream from reality?

By looking at the objective evidence.

When I awoke following a night during which I experienced sleep paralysis there was no evidence of any intruder. The doors were locked, the windows unbroken, and no-one else in the house had seen or heard anything.

The distinction is: when more people experience the same thing independently from one another.

No, that's useless. Many people can be fooled by the same magician's trick, the same faulty perceptions, the same faulty memory, the same changes in the way their brains are processing data due to chemical and/or physiological malfunctions.

If thousands of people see David Copperfield make the Statue of Liberty disappear, does that mean the disappearance must be reality? Just think about what you're suggesting, it's obviously nonsense.

 

[MaartenVergu]

By looking at the objective evidence.

When I awoke following a night during which I experienced sleep paralysis there was no evidence of any intruder. The doors were locked, the windows unbroken, and no-one else in the house had seen or heard anything.

Again, when this dimension can only be seen during sleepparalasys, you will not find evidence in the laboratory of this dimension.

No, that's useless. Many people can be fooled by the same magician's trick, the same faulty perceptions, the same faulty memory, the same changes in the way their brains are processing data due to chemical and/or physiological malfunctions.

If thousands of people see David Copperfield make the Statue of Liberty disappear, does that mean the disappearance must be reality? Just think about what you're suggesting, it's obviously nonsense.

Thousands of people have seen David Copperfield and his trick. Ergo: David Copperfield and his trick are really been done.
So, they all witness the same David Copperfield, ergo: he exists.

What are the chances, statistically, that people report exactly the same dreamcontent:

an out of body experience
being drawn into darkness through a tunnel,
at an extremely high speed,
until reaching a realm of radiant golden-white light.
a feeling of unconditional love (the feeling is also universal)
a life review with moral feelings

It's hard to believe that this is because the brain is wired the same.
It's more likely that this is another dimension.

 

[Pixel42]

Again, when this dimension can only be seen during sleepparalasys, you will not find evidence in the laboratory of this dimension.

How convenient.

What are the chances, statistically, that people report exactly the same dreamcontent:

an out of body experience
being drawn into darkness through a tunnel,
at an extremely high speed,
until reaching a realm of radiant golden-white light.
a feeling of unconditional love (the feeling is also universal)
a life review with moral feelings

Very high, for the reasons that have already been explained to you.

It's hard to believe that this is because the brain is wired the same.

It's very easy to believe, when you actually bother to look into the matter.

It's more likely that this is another dimension.

How can an explanation for which not a shred of evidence has been produced be "more likely" than an explanation for which ample evidence exists?

 

[MaartenVergu]

David Copperfield exists while they are experiencing him and his trick. He is not an illusion. The fact that he is doing a trick is not an illusion.

 

[Pixel42]

And you David Copperfield argument is nonsense. David Copperfield exists. He is not an illusion.

Have you really missed this point completely?

Please try again.

 

[Pixel42]

David Copperfield exists while they are experiencing him and his trick. He is not an illusion. The fact that he is doing a trick is not an illusion.

But the perception they are all experiencing is the same, and they are all mistaken.

People can have exactly the same experience, and all be mistaken about what it is they're experiencing. That is the point. Whether that experience is deliberately manufactured by a magician or just the result of the way their brains process information when malfunctioning is irrelevant to that point.