Merged Near Death Experience Study

[MaartenVergu]

I disagree. When people have exactly the same dreamcontent, you may talk about an objective reality instead of a subjective experience. That's my opinion.
All the ingredients are the same. That can't be a coincidence.
I forgot a few: they experience a timeless realm. They witness that it is more real than our reality.
Statistically, the chances are very low that two people have the same dream "because they are wired the same".

Pixel42, give me the names of two people with exactly the same dream. (and don't use your example of sleepparalysis again)
You can't name two people with exactly the same dreamcontent.

 

[deaman]

It's hard to believe that this is because the brain is wired the same. It's more likely that this is another dimension.

No.

 

[Pixel42]

I disagree. When people have exactly the same dreamcontent, you may talk about an objective reality instead of a subjective experience. That's my opinion.

An opinion which is unsupported, and which differs from the supported opinion of professionals.

All the ingredients are the same. That can't be a coincidence.

It's not a coincidence. It's a similar experience resulting from similar conditions.

Statistically, the chances are very low that two people have the same dream "because they are wired the same".

The chances of people having similar dreams (i.e. similar brains responding to similar stimuli) under similar conditions is very high. I have no idea why you would think otherwise.

Pixel42, give me the names of two people with exactly the same dream.

Read the literature. There are plenty of dreams that lots of people have. Taking an exam, appearing naked in a familiar situation, etc etc.

(and don't use your example of sleepparalysis again)

The sleep paralysis example is highly relevant and I will use it as often as seems appropriate, whether you like it or not.

 

[Pope130]

Statistically, the chances are very low that two people have the same dream "because they are wired the same".

You are stating this as a statistical probability. Please show your work. What input data are you using, and what is it's source? What analysis technique are you using, and what are the specific numeric results?

Or are you just making an argument from incredulity?

 

[steenkh]

I disagree. When people have exactly the same dreamcontent, you may talk about an objective reality instead of a subjective experience. That's my opinion.

On the one side we have a physical explanation that completely covers the experience, and then we have your opinion that demolishes physics. Why should we accept this unsupported theory of yours as "objective reality"?

You can't name two people with exactly the same dreamcontent.

That would actually weaken your theory rather than strengthen it. If different people have different experiences, it is less likely that they all experience objective reality.

 

[MaartenVergu]

ok, explain to me how it is possible that people can think logically when the EEG is flat?
When the brain doesn't function anymore, people experience a very vivid or lucid 'dream' and the story is coherent. How is that possible without a functioning brain?
(the brain stops functioning 15 seconds after a heart attack).Current scientific models can't explain this.

 

[turingtest]

I disagree. When people have exactly the same dreamcontent, you may talk about an objective reality instead of a subjective experience. That's my opinion.
All the ingredients are the same. That can't be a coincidence.
I forgot a few: they experience a timeless realm. They witness that it is more real than our reality.
Statistically, the chances are very low that two people have the same dream "because they are wired the same".

Pixel42, give me the names of two people with exactly the same dream. (and don't use your example of sleepparalysis again)
You can't name two people with exactly the same dreamcontent.

And what is this "exactly the same dreamcontent"? Let's see-

an out of body experience
being drawn into darkness through a tunnel,
at an extremely high speed,
until reaching a realm of radiant golden-white light.
a feeling of unconditional love (the feeling is also universal)
a life review with moral feelings

Add "a timeless realm...[which] is more real than our reality."
None of these things are "exactly" anything- they're such trivial generalities, which can be ascribed easily to shared expectations, that they can't be fairly described as evidence of anything but the experiences themselves, not any "objective reality" behind them (the phrases "timeless realm" and "more real than reality" are really grasping at straws- how such meaningless fluff can be described as universal experiences that are evidence for an objective reality is beyond me).

And another point (one that's already been touched on here earlier) is that if you want to have evidence for (as opposed to just "believe in") your "objective reality" behind the near death experiences, it's important to remember that "near death" is as much a part of that phrase as "experiences." IOW, your model has to account for the people who are as near death, but have no experiences at all, as well as those who have them under the same conditions. Without that, all you have is a study of the experiences, and a finding that, yup, some folks have them- but shared anecdotes aren't evidence of a (presumably universal) objective reality behind them when all the evidence, including the lack of experiences, isn't taken into account. There's nothing "universal" about (for example) a feeling of "unconditional love" that isn't felt by many folks who come as near death with no experiences at all; it's your theory of an objective reality, so it's your burden to make it a falsifiable one that accounts as much for "no experiences" as for "experiences."

 

[turingtest]

ok, explain to me how it is possible that people can think logically when the EEG is flat?
When the brain doesn't function anymore, people experience a very vivid or lucid 'dream' and the story is coherent. How is that possible without a functioning brain?
(the brain stops functioning 15 seconds after a heart attack).
Science can't explain this.

How do you know they're doing the dreaming while the EEG is flat?

 

[MaartenVergu]

Pim Van Lommel did research and said that the EEG was flat.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3o0CSgGaBY0

 

[Cainkane1]

Several years ago a man who kept claiming he was abducted by aliens and who passed lie detectors to that effect was taken to a hospital for several weeks. While there he said he had been abducted by aliens but the hospital staff showed him a video of him lying in bed the whole time he was supposed to be gone. He had hallucinated the entire episode.

Every human being has a subconscious B movie in their head. Sometimes even atheists dream of going to Hell or Heaven. Often these dreams have a profound effect on the dreamer. Atheists reconvert etc.

Heres the problem. When one person goes to either Heaven or Hell and they meet another who said they went to the same places they often have very different descriptions of those places.

Another problem is that in many cases these people are not really near death but in a comatose condition being cared for by doctors.

 

[steenkh]

Pim Van Lommel did research and said that the EEG was flat.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3o0CSgGaBY0

And how did he show that the experience happened while the EEG was flat? Could he prove that the experience was not formed while waking up, or just before the EEG flattened?

For your information, normal dreaming is not happening all night even though we may feel it happens that way. It only happens in short bursts of about 5 minutes duration, often right before we awake. How long does it take to wake up after a flattened EEG?

 

[Lukas1986]

Pim Van Lommel did research and said that the EEG was flat.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3o0CSgGaBY0

This does not matter. There is brain activity beyond a flat EEG:

Researchers have found brain activity beyond a flat line EEG, which they have called Nu-complexes (from the Greek letter n). According to existing scientific data, researchers and doctors had established that beyond the so-called "flat line" (flat electroencephalogram or EEG), there is nothing at all, no brain activity, no possibility of life. This major discovery suggests that there is a whole new frontier in animal and human brain functioning.

Source: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/09/130918180246.htm

Also Pim Van Lommel is a believer and a hard one:

In a subchapter titled "Pseudoscientific Explanations of Near-Death Experiences" of the Dutch bestseller titled We zijn ons brein (We are our brain), neurobiologist Dick Swaab praises Van Lommel's research for mapping patients experiences and opening up the subject of near-death experiences (NDE's) to the medical world. But he also indicates that Van Lommel's book ignores (Nobel Prize–winning) scientific knowledge including some conclusions from his own research. He does not refute neurobiological explanations, gives no scientific basis for his statements and borrows concepts from quantum physics without ground. According to Swaab Van Lommel deviates from the scientific approach and his book can only be categorized as pseudoscientific.[4]

Dutch physician and anesthesiologist G. M. Woerlee wrote a chapter by chapter examination of Van Lommel's book, Consciousness Beyond Life. According to Woerlee's concluding remarks Lommel's book is full of pseudoscientific arguments, and the picture of the functioning of the body as proposed in his book is not consistent with medical knowledge. Consciousness Beyond Life is "a masterly example of how tendentious and suggestive interpretation of international scientific literature, vague presentation of basic medical facts, together with ignorance of some basic statistical principles leads to incorrect conclusions."[5]

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pim_van_Lommel#Criticism

 

[Akhenaten]

Again, when this dimension can only be seen during sleepparalasys, you will not find evidence in the laboratory of this dimension.

Reported but not reproducible, eh?

How inconvenient for you that "non-existent" can be described in exactly the same way.

Thousands of people have seen David Copperfield and his trick. Ergo: David Copperfield and his trick are really been done.

It's trivially obvious that the trick was done, yes, but that's not the point that was being made.

So, they all witness the same David Copperfield, ergo: he exists.

Why would you answer as though this was ever in question?

trick = fake
David Copperfield = real​

Are you seriously having trouble with that?

What are the chances, statistically, that people report exactly the same dreamcontent:

an out of body experience
being drawn into darkness through a tunnel,
at an extremely high speed,
until reaching a realm of radiant golden-white light.
a feeling of unconditional love (the feeling is also universal)
a life review with moral feelings

Dead certainty.

It's hard to believe that this is because the brain is wired the same.

Perhaps it's hard for you to believe.

Such incredulity, however, does not an argument make.

It's more likely that this is another dimension.

No, alien implants are far more likely.

 

[Kathie Bondar]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7621608.stm

The physical body is bonded to the what I will call the "astral body" Think of it as your computer and your removable floppy disk. Your physical body is your hardware, the astral body is the floppy disk. The two are bonded at approx. three months of gestation and detach at death. Usually at death the astral body stay with the physical body until that body is dealt with either by burial or cremation.
Telepathy is the universal means of communication, this is how the fetus in the womb communicates with his mother, this is how animals communicate, this is how god communicates. There is a threshold intensity like for light or sound. Everybody has it, although most are not aware of it. Sometimes you may think, "oh, just a hunch", not realizing that someone has telepathically communicated with you.

 

[deaman]

The physical body is bonded to the what I will call the "astral body" Think of it as your computer and your removable floppy disk. Your physical body is your hardware, the astral body is the floppy disk. The two are bonded at approx. three months of gestation and detach at death. Usually at death the astral body stay with the physical body until that body is dealt with either by burial or cremation.

No. There is no such thing as an astral body.

Telepathy is the universal means of communication, this is how the fetus in the womb communicates with his mother, this is how animals communicate, this is how god communicates.

Tell me what I am thinking right now.

There is no god.

Please present "real evidence" for any of the myriad, absurd claims you make.

 

[MaartenVergu]

Lukas1986, do you know what Woerlee believes about people who feel themselves moving, flying, or being drawn nicely through a tunnel toward a light during an NDE? The socalled 'scientific' explanation is: because of narrow vision.

Don't just quote socalled experts, but think for yourself.
Do you really belief that such a rich experience of drawn nicely through a tunnel toward a bright light can just be explained by narrow vision and that's it?
Think for yourself.

Think for youserlf: do you really belief that it is common that people have exactly the same dreams? Or do you believe that the chances are very low that two people have had exactly the same dream?
Think for yourself. Don't believe the socalled expert when your common sense tells you that it is odd that two people have exactly the same dream.

The answer: "because they are wired the same' is nonsense. Because we all are wired the same, so we all have the same dreams?

 

[mstricky]

The physical body is bonded to the what I will call the "astral body" Think of it as your computer and your removable floppy disk. Your physical body is your hardware, the astral body is the floppy disk. The two are bonded at approx. three months of gestation and detach at death. Usually at death the astral body stay with the physical body until that body is dealt with either by burial or cremation.
Telepathy is the universal means of communication, this is how the fetus in the womb communicates with his mother, this is how animals communicate, this is how god communicates. There is a threshold intensity like for light or sound. Everybody has it, although most are not aware of it. Sometimes you may think, "oh, just a hunch", not realizing that someone has telepathically communicated with you.

Agreed

 

[Akhenaten]

Geeze.

 

[MaartenVergu]

The big problem is: scientists cannot go there with their instruments. They can't investigate the tunnel, the light, the life review etc. It can only be investigated by people who went over there.
Therefore, it's not true, some scientists claim.

Non-sequitur. It's not because you can't investigate such realm that it does not exist. It's not because you can't go over there with your instruments that this dimension is not part of the world.
It's another dimension. A parallel universe. And the portal is consciousness.

 

[deaman]

The big problem is: scientists cannot go there with their instruments. They can't investigate the tunnel, the light, the life review etc. It can only be witnessed by people who went over there because of an accident.
Therefore, it's not true, some scientists claim. Non-sequitur. It's not because you can't investigate such realm that it does not exist.
It's another dimension. A parallel universe. And the portal is the mind.

Wholly unfounded.