Merged Near Death Experience Study

In another thread, I've been arguing with someone who is convinced that the highest consciousness is achieved by abandoning consciousness, wisdom is achieved by transcending thought, and communication perfected by embracing the indescribable. So sure, why not consider a half dead brain enhanced too? I'm seeing stars. Wow, groovy.

There's a degree of truth here, although the term "highest consciousness" is meaningless.
I think we would all accept that when we learn a new skill- especially a motor skill, we are doing it "consciously" and we are usually crap. After adequate practice, the skill becomes "hard wired" and we do it far better precisely because we do not need to think about it.
No better way to put a man off a putt than asking him exactly how he holds his putter. He is now thinking about it, instead of just doing it and he is apt to miss.

Balancing your chequebook , on the other hand, is best done by actually paying attention.
 
After adequate practice, the skill becomes "hard wired" and we do it far better precisely because we do not need to think about it.

I think that one way of expressing it, but the truth is more that, once an action is "hard-wired", we only have to think "minimally", about said action.

If we didn't think about it at all, there would be, no action.
 
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From the link in the sidebar to:

Towards the light

Dr Sam Parnia
Director of the Human Consciousness Project


"During AWARE, investigators will place images strategically in hospital bays, such that they will only be visible by looking down from the ceiling and nowhere else.

If after 36 months, hundreds of patients report being "out of body" yet no one can report seeing the images, then we must consider these reports to be nothing more than illusions. If on the other hand there are hundreds of positive reports, then we will have to redefine our understanding of the mind and brain during clinical death. "

This was published in September 2008, at the beginning of the study.
I have not been able to find any peer reviewed documentation of the AWARE study and it is now 6 years later, twice the 3 year period of the study.

I'm going to tentatively conclude that we must consider these reports to be nothing more than illusions, as Dr. Parnia suggested.

Perhaps someone else can find the actual published 3 year study?
 
There's a degree of truth here, although the term "highest consciousness" is meaningless.
I think we would all accept that when we learn a new skill- especially a motor skill, we are doing it "consciously" and we are usually crap. After adequate practice, the skill becomes "hard wired" and we do it far better precisely because we do not need to think about it.
No better way to put a man off a putt than asking him exactly how he holds his putter. He is now thinking about it, instead of just doing it and he is apt to miss.

Balancing your chequebook , on the other hand, is best done by actually paying attention.
Oh, I tend to agree with that, but what we're talking about here is actually the redefinition of terms to mean their opposite, among other nonsense.

Not to name names, but right now we're arguing about the fact that nobody but the master in question understands the "invariant aspect" of a concussion. It's possible that he used the wrong word when he introduced 'concussion' to the discussion, but once it's been said, it cannot be wrong, so it must be fitted in.
 
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From the link in the sidebar to:

Towards the light

Dr Sam Parnia
Director of the Human Consciousness Project


"During AWARE, investigators will place images strategically in hospital bays, such that they will only be visible by looking down from the ceiling and nowhere else.

If after 36 months, hundreds of patients report being "out of body" yet no one can report seeing the images, then we must consider these reports to be nothing more than illusions. If on the other hand there are hundreds of positive reports, then we will have to redefine our understanding of the mind and brain during clinical death. "

This was published in September 2008, at the beginning of the study.
I have not been able to find any peer reviewed documentation of the AWARE study and it is now 6 years later, twice the 3 year period of the study.

I'm going to tentatively conclude that we must consider these reports to be nothing more than illusions, as Dr. Parnia suggested.

Perhaps someone else can find the actual published 3 year study?

It maybe that when OBE occurs, the concentration is on looking at your own body and not what is placed on top of a cupboard
 
summary- hypoxia is associated with muddled thinking and difficulty in concentrating. The clarity, detail, coherence, and vividness of some NDE's are not what you would expect with hypoxia.
People aren't reporting NDEs while hypoxic. They're reporting NDEs after having been hypoxic.
 

I doubt that any of those who have their heart stopped and are under resuscitation are in a position to report about their experiences while it happens, so do you really think a link is needed to document this?
 
Perhaps someone else can find the actual published 3 year study?
Having previously (Update Jan 2013) tried to quash expectations of the promised publication, e.g. "... owing to the exploratory nature of this study they do not anticipate there to be an end in the near future. Instead the study is likely to evolve into further research projects downstream with time", they are now saying that the phase one study has been submitted to a journal and the results are in peer review (Update 2014). Release is anticipated 'later this year'.
 
I doubt that any of those who have their heart stopped and are under resuscitation are in a position to report about their experiences while it happens, so do you really think a link is needed to document this?

Since that's exactly what many of these people are reporting (they "saw" their resuscitation, etc.), I think a link is required to prove the claim that Pixy is making. Otherwise, it's just an assertion.

ETA: Let's be clear on what we're claiming- I'm suggesting hypoxia is not a good explanation for NDE's, for the reasons I gave. The actual reporting of NDE's of course happens after the person has been resuscitated, and is able to talk, but that's a trivial point UNLESS one is making the claim that NDE's are happening AFTER the resuscitation, OR that people are just making it up.

If THAT's being asserted, I want a link for that.

Sorry for any confusion!
 
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I think that one way of expressing it, but the truth is more that, once an action is "hard-wired", we only have to think "minimally", about said action.

If we didn't think about it at all, there would be, no action.

That's not quite accurate. You can, in fact, do a number of activities without conscious thought. The best descriptive example is sleep-walking.

The terms for consciousness are poorly defined so people tend to have a hard time discussing these topics.

An insect senses its environment but it has no awareness. It's responses are mostly hardwired. Many insects simply react to their environment wherever they happen to be. However, there are insects with memory and at least some capacity to learn. There are a few that have abstraction. The best example I can think of is the honeybee.

Fish do show awareness. I suppose this is related to establishing a territory. I define awareness as having an abstract model of your environment in relation to yourself. Crocodiles show awareness. Cuttlefish also show awareness.

Consciousness is tougher. This involves the ability to construct new abstract models. Octopus are right on the edge of this with only a tiny ability to problem solve. Water monitors can do this. The ability to create abstract models is difficult because you have to have inhibition systems to counter them otherwise your behavior becomes erratic. It is possible that some fish have some problem solving ability. Trigger Fish seem to be pretty clever so they are probably at least as conscious as octopus.

When people sleep-walk, they have obvious awareness of their environment, however, they don't exhibit conscious problem-solving. Sleep-walkers do what is familiar, so these would be things that have become hard-wired through learning.

People don't usually understand how limited human consciousness is. Most of the brain is organized for automatic pattern matching. Both hemispheres of your brain are aware but only one of them is conscious. You could say that you are aware in a subconscious fashion of these patterns (the same as most fish are aware) but most go unnoticed by your conscious mind. That's the way it should be. However, that does cause problems. For example, if you take medication everyday then this becomes so routine that you create no new memory patterns from it. It then becomes impossible to remember if you took the medication. This is why people use pill organizers. It's also why pilots manually read through a check list instead of doing it by memory.
 
Part of my memory of the event is a flash image of myself lying on the floor, as viewed from straight above. I interpret this as an image created in my own mind as it tried to figure out what was going on.

This is a dissociative ideation. You see it a lot with children who are either abused or in stressful situations. For example, one woman said that her father would take her into the basement and sexually abuse her. She said that she would make herself very small and hide in a crack in the basement wall. Another example I can think of is a woman who saw her mother accidentally cut herself with a kitchen knife when she was very young. She said that she went to a room with other children and watched what was happened to her mother from a distance. She said that one of the children took her place during this time. Another one that comes to mind was a young boy who was bitten by a rattlesnake. He was certain that you were not supposed to move after being bitten but he desperately wanted to get back home. He said that an angel appeared and carried him back to his house. Your experience is not unusual. It just generally takes more extreme circumstances to see it in adults. One example that comes to mind in an adult involved a man in prison. At this facility, they weren't just put into solitary confinement. They were first put into a straight-jacket and then put into solitary confinement. This man said that he became able to leave his body and visit other places while confined. He placed some religious significance on this. For example, he claimed that while in spirit form, he could tell if people were good or evil by how shadowed their faces were.
 
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ETA: Let's be clear on what we're claiming- I'm suggesting hypoxia is not a good explanation for NDE's, for the reasons I gave. The actual reporting of NDE's of course happens after the person has been resuscitated, and is able to talk, but that's a trivial point UNLESS one is making the claim that NDE's are happening AFTER the resuscitation, OR that people are just making it up.
So you no longer want documentation of the trivial point Pixy was making?
 
So you no longer want documentation of the trivial point Pixy was making?

No, because it's a non-sequiter. Hypoxia has nothing to do with reports of NDE's.

But it's been asserted that hypoxia is a cause of NDE's.

Is anyone asserting the latter?
 
About hypoxia and anoxia:

"One plausible physiological model attributes them to
decreased oxygen (hypoxia) or to a complete lack of
oxygen (anoxia), which appears to be the final common
pathway to death. However, hypoxia or anoxia generally
produce idiosyncratic,frightening hallucinations and lead
to agitation and belligerence, quite unlike the peaceful
near-death experience." (Bruce Greyson Phd.)
 

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