Merged Near Death Experience Study

[bruto]

And about EEG: because there is no blood flowing into the brain during the cardiac arrest, during during clinical death, we can no longer measure electric activity in the brain. No blood, no electricity in the brain.

Heart stops, brain switches off just like that? Are you sure?

 

[mstricky]

This is the deal. There maybe only one in a million have paranormal experiences or maybe one in ten million, that's why no one believes people who have paranormal experiences. I have had messages from dead friends, their info I passed onto police and the info proved to be true. I know for sure, therefore, that we do not die and that there is another dimension where we go to and continue to live. We do NOT die. You don't have to believe in a God, I don't believe there is one but there is a system, the universe that we don't understand. I don't follow religion in fact I get frustrated with it and think it was originally set up just to control the people, power etc.
I think when we die we judge ourselves. If we don't repent whilst on earth, we suffer 'up' there. So we should contemplate, think about what we have done wrong in life and say a sorry

 

[tsig]

Slowvehicle, why do believe that other people have dreams and images in their minds?
Because they 'claim' it. You accept their testimony as evidence.
So, it's the only thing we have: their testimony of this 'place'. It's evidence when they tell the same story, independent of each other.

We also know they didn't actually die since we have their testimony.

 

[Slowvehicle]

Slowvehicle, why do believe that other people have dreams and images in their minds?
Because they 'claim' it. You accept their testimony as evidence.
So, it's the only thing we have: their testimony of this 'place'. It's evidence when they tell the same story, independent of each other.

You may be making an unwarranted assumption.

I believe that other people have dreams; as per their reports and anecdotes.

I do not believe that other people's dreams represent any more than normal functions of their brains; certainly not some facet of heretofore undiscovered reality, or some window into a different world, or an afterlife.

For "dreams", read "NDEs".

Not to mention your rather loose standards for "the same story".

 

[Slowvehicle]

When the content of the dream is exactly the same, in that case, it's not a dream anymore. It's a reality.

I see. Myoclonic jerks, then, must mean that the cross-cultural sensation of "falling" is an indication of rejecting that "other dimension"...

Dream things are not reality.

 

[Slowvehicle]

<snip for reasons>During the time that Pam was in standstill, she experienced a NDE.

If her brain was at a standstill, with a flat EEG, how is it to be held that there was "brain activity"? What indicates that her "experince" "took place" while her brain was not functioning? Consider the very short time it takes for the brain to dream...

Her remarkably detailed veridical out-of-body observations during her surgery were later verified to be true. Her case is considered to be one of the strongest cases of veridical (i.e., verified) evidence in NDE research because of her ability to describe the unique surgical instruments, the surgical procedures used on her, and her ability to describe in detail these events while she was clinically brain dead. <snip>

Not at all what "veridical" means.

 

[Slowvehicle]

And about EEG: because there is no blood flowing into the brain during the cardiac arrest, during during clinical death, we can no longer measure electric activity in the brain. No blood, no electricity in the brain.

Not after 3-7 minutes, no. EEG traces fade and cease, which is the clinical description of a brain that is not functioning. Not a brain that is "functioning on an astral plane", or a brain that is "functioning outside the body", but a brain that is not functioning.

 

[Pixel42]

I totally believe in NDE and OBEs but its difficult for others that have not experienced them to believe.

Lots of people who have experienced what other people would interpret as NDES, OBEs or other paranormal events have taken the time to research how their brains and perceptions work and come to understand and accept that there are far more plausible and likely non-paranormal explanations. Just because you choose to wallow in wilful ignorance in order to maintain your comforting beliefs don't assume that everyone else who has such experiences is so craven.

 

[Donn]

I totally believe in NDE and OBEs but its difficult for others that have not experienced them to believe..

Sure, NDEs and OBEs are all normal experiences. They are simply experiences of altered states within a mind.

When you go on a holiday to a sunny land and visit the beach, you are having an experience in reality.

When you dream about a sunny beach, you are having an experience in your head. (Which is still real, but not the same real.)

If the dream is so convincing that you think you went to the beach, while under your sheets, then you have simply been tricked by your mind. You did not actually go to the beach.

If you insist that you did go to the beach, then we can ask for evidence because you are making a claim beyond the known limits of physics.

 

[Donn]

Dr. Michael Sabom .. experience of a woman named Pam Reynolds.

Dr. Sabom was not in her mind having her experience - therefore he was being creative when he wrote about her experiences. This is reporting, not science.

In everyday terms, she was put to death.

But not in medical terms.

Her remarkably detailed veridical out-of-body observations during her surgery were later verified to be true.. because of her ability to describe the unique surgical instruments, the surgical procedures used on her, and her ability to describe in detail these events..

A magician can saw a person in half right in front of your eyes without hurting them. This has been verified by asking them how they feel and do they see what's happened.

Science!

You theorize that NDEs are produced by brain chemistry. But, Dr. Peter Fenwick, a neuropsychiatrist and the leading authority in Britain concerning NDEs, believes that these theories fall far short of the facts.

The doc is wrong.

And about EEG: because there is no blood flowing into the brain during the cardiac arrest, during during clinical death, we can no longer measure electric activity in the brain. No blood, no electricity in the brain.

If that brain wakes-up again then it was alive all along.

The clue is in the name: near death experiences.

 

[tsig]

Dr. Sabom was not in her mind having her experience - therefore he was being creative when he wrote about her experiences. This is reporting, not science.



But not in medical terms.



A magician can saw a person in half right in front of your eyes without hurting them. This has been verified by asking them how they feel and do they see what's happened.

Science!



The doc is wrong.



If that brain wakes-up again then it was alive all along.

The clue is in the name: near death experiences.

Since NDE are not death why should what happens then be applied to after death?

Bait and switch.

 

[Donn]

Yep. It's like getting close to London and then claiming you toured the place.

 

[mstricky]

Lots of people who have experienced what other people would interpret as NDES, OBEs or other paranormal events have taken the time to research how their brains and perceptions work and come to understand and accept that there are far more plausible and likely non-paranormal explanations. Just because you choose to wallow in wilful ignorance in order to maintain your comforting beliefs don't assume that everyone else who has such experiences is so craven.

I haven't experienced them myself. The people telling me about them were bemused and perhaps looking for explanations. They were reserved, polite people that were not prone to dramatics etc. They weren't lying, making false claims; they didn't refer to them as OBEs as no one had heard of them at that time

 

[Pixel42]

I haven't experienced them myself. The people telling me about them were bemused and perhaps looking for explanations.

Of course they were, these are strange experiences. I was bemused and looking for explanations after my sleep paralysis experiences. I found them. So can the people who have NDEs and OBEs, and indeed those who have other kinds of experiences which they are initially and erroneously inclined to attribute to the supernatural or the paranormal.

they were reserved, polite people that were not prone to dramatics etc. They weren't lying, making false claims;

I have not suggested that they were.

they didn't refer to them as OBEs as no one had heard of them at that time

So now they know what to call these experiences, just as I now know what to call my experiences of sleep paralysis, even though I'd never heard the term when I first had them.

 

[mstricky]

Of course they were, these are strange experiences. I was bemused and looking for explanations after my sleep paralysis experiences. I found them. So can the people who have NDEs and OBEs, and indeed those who have other kinds of experiences which they are initially and erroneously inclined to attribute to the supernatural or the paranormal.


I have not suggested that they were.


So now they know what to call these experiences, just as I now know what to call my experiences of sleep paralysis, even though I'd never heard the term when I first had them.

I feel sure you know everything

 

[Belz...]

On Youtube you can find a lot of witnesses talking about their own NDE. There are a lot of people with their own personal story. And most of them have had similar experiences. The subjective experience was similar. That's not what we define as an hallucination. A common experience must be real.

No.

When the brain is running out of oxygen, it follows that the symptoms are similar, does it not ?

 

[Pixel42]

I feel sure you know everything

Not at all.

I do, however, know more than those who go out of their way not to learn anything which might contradict their cherished beliefs.

 

[MaartenVergu]

When the brain is running out of oxygen, it follows that the symptoms are similar, does it not ?

It's not because people have the same symptoms that the content of their hallucinations is exactly the same. There is no evidence for that.
Give me an example of an experiment been done where scientists induce the samed hallucinations by a lot of people by manipulating their brains with electric pulses or chemical substances (Drugs).

 

[Belz...]

All the ingredients are the same. That can't be a coincidence.

Yes, ALL the ingredients. That's what people are trying to explain to you.

ok, explain to me how it is possible that people can think logically when the EEG is flat?

Begging the question. No one thinks when their heart doesn't pump blood because the brain cannot function without oxygen, and we know that no conscious events occur during that time because people who have sudden heart failures report total time loss. There's a reason they are called near-death experiences. The person isn't dead when it's happening.

 

[Donn]

Give me an example of an experiment been done where scientists induce the samed hallucinations by a lot of people by manipulating their brains with electric pulses or chemical substances (Drugs).

NDEs during surgery.