Merged Near Death Experience Study

[Belz...]

The physical body is bonded to the what I will call the "astral body" Think of it as your computer and your removable floppy disk. Your physical body is your hardware, the astral body is the floppy disk. The two are bonded at approx. three months of gestation and detach at death. Usually at death the astral body stay with the physical body until that body is dealt with either by burial or cremation.
Telepathy is the universal means of communication, this is how the fetus in the womb communicates with his mother, this is how animals communicate, this is how god communicates. There is a threshold intensity like for light or sound. Everybody has it, although most are not aware of it. Sometimes you may think, "oh, just a hunch", not realizing that someone has telepathically communicated with you.

I assume you will publish your peer-reviewed paper on this topic soon ?

Ah, of course you won't. It's a theory you pulled out of your ass or read in some cheap scam book and accepted without question. We are discussing reality, here.

 

[Belz...]

I totally believe in NDE and OBEs but its difficult for others that have not experienced them to believe. I say, so what? As long as I know what I believe and know what is real, I don't care what anyone else thinks. They are missing out

I care. I care that people like you believe in unproven things because they give too much weight to their own subjective interpretations, flawed memories and experiences, or emotional biases.

By your logic, every honest claim made by every human being is true because they "know" it is. All religions are true, all theories no matter how contradictory or mutually-exclusive, etc.

If I saw a ghost, for instance, I wouldn't change my beliefs about reality; I'd consult a shrink.

I feel sure you know everything

Argument from ignorance.

 

[Belz...]

The big problem is: scientists cannot go there with their instruments.

Why not ? If it's real, and you perceive it, then it interacts with atoms and molecules. Thus it is detectable.

The only "evidence" you can have is the independent testemony of people who have been there.

Testimony that varies with one's culture and beliefs. Actually we have plenty of hard data on those experiences, and we know the brain is oxygen-deprived during those episodes.

When the content of the dream is exactly the same, in that case, it's not a dream anymore. It's a reality.

Now that is a non sequitur.

It's not because people have the same symptoms that the content of their hallucinations is exactly the same.

First of all, the content is NOT exactly the same; not by a longshot. Second, it's a reasonable assumption that similar substrate, structure and beliefs will result in similar experiences and interpretations.

Give me an example of an experiment been done where scientists induce the samed hallucinations by a lot of people by manipulating their brains with electric pulses or chemical substances (Drugs).

I'm talking about the very chemistry and structure of the brain, which is very, very similar in almost every living human being.

 

[Slowvehicle]

It's not because people have the same symptoms that the content of their hallucinations is exactly the same. There is no evidence for that.
Give me an example of an experiment been done where scientists induce the samed hallucinations by a lot of people by manipulating their brains with electric pulses or chemical substances (Drugs).

Why limit it to "electrical pulses or drugs"? Have you read the studies of the pilots experiencing acceleration hypoxia?

 

[turingtest]

Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
It's not because people have the same symptoms that the content of their hallucinations is exactly the same. There is no evidence for that.
Give me an example of an experiment been done where scientists induce the samed hallucinations by a lot of people by manipulating their brains with electric pulses or chemical substances (Drugs).

Why limit it to "electrical pulses or drugs"? Have you read the studies of the pilots experiencing acceleration hypoxia?

I'm wondering why he switched to "electrical pulses or drugs" to begin with, since the "same symptoms" referred to are those of oxygen deprivation of the brain. Why would he demand evidence from things that aren't even the subject of discussion? A commonality* (or lack of it) in experiences under the effects of chemicals or electrical stimulation isn't relevant at all to the commonality of experiences due to hypoxia. And if someone were to find the evidence he demands here, it would be easy for him to point that out- "well, that's not the same as NDE conditions!" I don't think Maaartenn is so Machiavellian as to do this sort of bait-and-switch thing deliberately- he actually strikes me as quite sincere and honest- but...well, see my sig line. He wouldn't be the first to cut and wrap his "evidence" around his need to believe.

*And let's don't forget the fact that what Maartenn keeps calling "exactly the same" experience is, in fact, really nothing more than a broad commonality among them. "Exactly" requires details; Maartenn, so far, hasn't cited anything more detailed than moving at speed through a tunnel toward a bright light. What color is the tunnel? What (apparent) material? How bright is the light? What color is it? Without descriptions a little more specific, all he has are vague generalities that are as easily explained by shared expectations,** by real human beings with common real-world experience, as by some "objective reality" that can't be shared at all or seen any other way.

**Or memories. I've seen the idea floated that this "moving through a tunnel toward a bright light" may be nothing more than dying minds reverting- sort of short-circuiting- back to the first real memory that we all could have in common- the experience of birth. Of course, this idea is no more falsifiable than Maartenn's idea; but at least the objective reality of the experience is undeniable.

 

[Belz...]

I seriously doubt that the brain remembers birth in any way, in large part because usually your eyes are closed when this occurs, and also because memory isn't a flight recorder.

I think the tunnel is simply a symptom of the brain's visual cortex firing randomly and insufficiently under oxygen deprivation. Only after the fact is that interpreted as a "tunnel".

 

[tsig]

I'm wondering why he switched to "electrical pulses or drugs" to begin with, since the "same symptoms" referred to are those of oxygen deprivation of the brain. Why would he demand evidence from things that aren't even the subject of discussion? A commonality* (or lack of it) in experiences under the effects of chemicals or electrical stimulation isn't relevant at all to the commonality of experiences due to hypoxia. And if someone were to find the evidence he demands here, it would be easy for him to point that out- "well, that's not the same as NDE conditions!" I don't think Maaartenn is so Machiavellian as to do this sort of bait-and-switch thing deliberately- he actually strikes me as quite sincere and honest- but...well, see my sig line. He wouldn't be the first to cut and wrap his "evidence" around his need to believe.

*And let's don't forget the fact that what Maartenn keeps calling "exactly the same" experience is, in fact, really nothing more than a broad commonality among them. "Exactly" requires details; Maartenn, so far, hasn't cited anything more detailed than moving at speed through a tunnel toward a bright light. What color is the tunnel? What (apparent) material? How bright is the light? What color is it? Without descriptions a little more specific, all he has are vague generalities that are as easily explained by shared expectations,** by real human beings with common real-world experience, as by some "objective reality" that can't be shared at all or seen any other way.

**Or memories. I've seen the idea floated that this "moving through a tunnel toward a bright light" may be nothing more than dying minds reverting- sort of short-circuiting- back to the first real memory that we all could have in common- the experience of birth. Of course, this idea is no more falsifiable than Maartenn's idea; but at least the objective reality of the experience is undeniable.

Could we cal that the Hal Hypotheses?

 

[mstricky]

I seriously doubt that the brain remembers birth in any way, in large part because usually your eyes are closed when this occurs, and also because memory isn't a flight recorder.

I think the tunnel is simply a symptom of the brain's visual cortex firing randomly and insufficiently under oxygen deprivation. Only after the fact is that interpreted as a "tunnel".

Argument from ignorance

 

[MuDPhuD]

It's not because people have the same symptoms that the content of their hallucinations is exactly the same. There is no evidence for that.
Give me an example of an experiment been done where scientists induce the samed hallucinations by a lot of people by manipulating their brains with electric pulses or chemical substances (Drugs).

http://informahealthcare.com/doi/abs/10.3109/10826080903565321

That report seems particularly relevant to this thread. Abusers of the drug ketamine report symptoms of the NDE , specifically "altered perception of time (90%), strong sense of detaching from own physical body (88%), and a sense of peace/joy (76% of subjects)." All this without "nearly dying" or being resuscitated. Not only are the hallucinations the same between people using the drug ketamine, they are the same as people who have experienced extreme hypoxia and hypercarbia (i.e. resuscitation and "pulling Gs").

Another example:
http://jnnp.bmj.com/content/70/6/727.short

Parkinson's disease causes visual hallucinations which are
"...a complex visual image experienced while they are alert and have their eyes open. The image appears without any known trigger or voluntary effort, is somewhat blurred, and commonly moves. It stays present for a period of “seconds” or “minutes”. The content can be variable within and between hallucinators, and includes such entities as people, animals, buildings, or scenery. These features resemble those highlighted in hallucinations in the visually impaired (Charles Bonnet's syndrome)."
These are different than those of the ketamine users in the reference above, but similar to one another based on similar brain pathology.

The sensation of "being out of body", floating above and looking down on oneself (autoscopy), can also be induced by direct brain stimulation, drugs like ketamine, and is experienced by some epileptics as part of their seizure experience.
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00415-012-6689-x

Would anyone like to suggest that while awake in an operating room, the electrical activity induced in a cerebral cortex has separated the soul from the body, just for a few seconds?
It seems much more reasonable to believe that the sensation of autoscopy is produced by the brain, either by neuroactive drugs, seizure activity or direct electrical stimulation.

If you still want to believe that the sensation of autoscopy actually represents the disembodied consciousness floating above looking down, then you must explain to me how does it SEE, and HEAR without eyes or ears? How does it FEEL JOY without a limbic system? How does it REMEMBER without a hippocampus and temporal lobe?

 

[turingtest]

I seriously doubt that the brain remembers birth in any way, in large part because usually your eyes are closed when this occurs, and also because memory isn't a flight recorder.

I think the tunnel is simply a symptom of the brain's visual cortex firing randomly and insufficiently under oxygen deprivation. Only after the fact is that interpreted as a "tunnel".

Could we cal that the Hal Hypotheses?

I don't remember where I first ran across the idea, but I think it may have been in some SF or horror story I read when younger; so, "HAL hypothesis" is as apropos a name for it as any- except that I don't know that it even rises to the level of hypothesis, since (as I said) it's as non-falsifiable in principle as anything Maartenn has floated here. It's interesting speculation, nothing more.

 

[Belz...]

Argument from ignorance

What ? How is that an argument from ignorance ?

We KNOW that human memories don't gel until a few years, and we know that you don't open your eyes until a while after birth. And how is my hypothesis, which is in line with what we KNOW about NDEs, an argument from ignorance ?

Oh, was your ego bruised by my pointing out that you used such a fallacy a short while ago and felt you had to use the same sentence ? If that is the case then you have no idea what this fallacy is. The fallacy of argument from ignorance is saying "Well, we don't know, so I could be right" as if this is somehow convincing. My argument is "well we know _this_, so it's a reasonable assumption", which couldn't be further from arguing from ignorance.

Perhaps, instead of trying to score point in an imaginary game of yours, you should focus on discussing the topic ?

 

[Slowvehicle]

Argument from ignorance

No, no it isn't.

 

[mstricky]

What ? How is that an argument from ignorance ?

We KNOW that human memories don't gel until a few years, and we know that you don't open your eyes until a while after birth. And how is my hypothesis, which is in line with what we KNOW about NDEs, an argument from ignorance ?

Oh, was your ego bruised by my pointing out that you used such a fallacy a short while ago and felt you had to use the same sentence ? If that is the case then you have no idea what this fallacy is. The fallacy of argument from ignorance is saying "Well, we don't know, so I could be right" as if this is somehow convincing. My argument is "well we know _this_, so it's a reasonable assumption", which couldn't be further from arguing from ignorance.

Perhaps, instead of trying to score point in an imaginary game of yours, you should focus on discussing the topic ?

I do try but it seems only skeptics can be rude on here

 

[Slowvehicle]

I do try but it seems only skeptics can be rude on here

I would be interested in what you think is evidence for this.

It has not, in fact, been my experience...

 

[MaartenVergu]

I admit that I have difficulties with the fact that such a beautiful and often life-changing experience is reduced to the explanation: 'it's only a dying brain'. It's been explained by science as something bad instead of something good.
I hope the Aware study will come up with some evidence of the fact that the OBE's are real.

 

[Belz...]

I do try but it seems only skeptics can be rude on here

Then stop dodging my point, and explain why yours isn't an argument from ignorance when you say "I feel sure you know everything ".

Then address this:

I care. I care that people like you believe in unproven things because they give too much weight to their own subjective interpretations, flawed memories and experiences, or emotional biases.

By your logic, every honest claim made by every human being is true because they "know" it is. All religions are true, all theories no matter how contradictory or mutually-exclusive, etc.

If I saw a ghost, for instance, I wouldn't change my beliefs about reality; I'd consult a shrink.

 

[Belz...]

I admit that I have difficulties with the fact that such a beautiful and often life-changing experience is reduced to the explanation: 'it's only a dying brain'.

I'm sure you're aware that incredulity isn't much of an indicator of reality.

 

[MaartenVergu]

That's true. But there is no reason to think that the search for an answer is over. Consciousness is still an enigma. Scientists are still investigating the brain and its relation with consciousness.

 

[MaartenVergu]

I have another question for you. Suppose that there is indeed a real OBE and a real NDE, how is it provable? What do you need, as a scientist, to discover the fact that consciousness is not caused by a brain? What kind of evidence would prove that?

 

[Belz...]

That's true. But there is no reason to think that the search for an answer is over.

I'm not sure anyone said it was. However, at this point we have very reasonable answers to any question about NDEs, and so unless someone can show that there are any issues with those, or that some new physics remains undiscovered, there is no reason to believe that any supernatural effect is involved.

I have another question for you. Suppose that there is indeed a real OBE and a real NDE, how is it provable?

Quite easily, in fact. If they exist, then they can be detected, and will have features we cannot explain with current physics or our current understanding. This isn't the case.