My "ESP" experiences

[thaiboxerken]

Do you even understand what "semantics" means in logic? Semantics are not trivial; they're actually very, very important.

Only to sophists.

In order for you to be so sure that I am a "believer," I would think you'd want to be certain (at the very least) that I was, in fact, rejecting all "mundane" explanations, not just the ones that some people on a message board happened to come up with.

The explanations people have given are all rational and evident. Yet you have rejected them without giving any intelligent reason to.

Otherwise, you seem way too quick to jump to conclusions to be the skeptic you think you are.

I doubt it.

 

[T'ai Chi]

Unfalsifiable claims can't be tested. When one says that ESP is random and uncontrollable, it makes the claim unfalsifiable.

Yes, I agree. So why do some people keep bringing up testing Stereolab if Stereolab hasn't claimed he can control 'ESP'?

If you want to stay on topic, quit straying off of it. There was no need for your "skeptic" remark.

For the third time, this is about possibly testing 'ESP', not individual people.

 

[thaiboxerken]

Yes, I agree. So why do some people keep bringing up testing Stereolab if Stereolab hasn't claimed he can control 'ESP'?

I don't know, maybe it just hasn't sunk in that his claim is unfalsifiable.


For the third time, this is about possibly testing 'ESP', not individual people.

Then why did you steer off topic?

 

[Stereolab]

There has been a variety of possible explanations put forth, and you apparently reject them all. Perhaps now is the time for you to put forth your explanation for your experiences.

Please also explain what you think is lacking in the array of explanations so far, and what kind of explanation you were looking for. None of us know exactly what happened, since you don't recall the exact date of the first experience we can't even check if it was a rerun.

I have no explanation for the experiences.

I am looking for an explanation that makes sense. I have no urge to believe in anything "weird" (other than it would be really cool to win a million dollars). I do not accept the explanations put forth so far because they involve improper recollection on my part (and while my memory is far from perfect, I knew something had happened on those instances that I couldn't explain, and I talked with others about it immediately), and/or the assumption that I jump to conclusions that mere coincidences reflect something paranormal (and I've tried to make my case that that is not so).

I do not know the date that the Wheel of Fortune episode ran, but I believe that the shows were not re-run during prime time. If someone were to present me evidence that prime-time WOF episodes during that time period were sometimes reruns, I would immediately think that the most logical explanation for that occurence.

 

[thaiboxerken]

I do not accept the explanations put forth so far because they involve improper recollection on my part (and while my memory is far from perfect, I knew something had happened on those instances that I couldn't explain, and I talked with others about it immediately), and/or the assumption that I jump to conclusions that mere coincidences reflect something paranormal (and I've tried to make my case that that is not so).

These mantras have been presented by believers too often in here. You should read the "Ladybrook" thread.

 

[T'ai Chi]

Yes, I agree. So why do some people keep bringing up testing Stereolab if Stereolab hasn't claimed he can control 'ESP'?

I don't know, maybe it just hasn't sunk in that his claim is unfalsifiable.

I guess not. As far as I can tell, Stereolab isn't making the claim that he can control his 'ESP', or predict when it will occur.

For the third time, this is about possibly testing 'ESP', not individual people.

Then why did you steer off topic? [/B]

For the fourth time, please stay on topic. We are having a skeptical discussion about possibly testing 'ESP'; not singling out people, not Lucianarchy, and not Clancie.

 

[thaiboxerken]

I guess not. As far as I can tell, Stereolab isn't making the claim that he can control his 'ESP', or predict when it will occur.

I thought that Stereolab didn't claim it was ESP.


For the fourth time, please stay on topic. We are having a skeptical discussion about possibly testing 'ESP'; not singling out people, not Lucianarchy, and not Clancie.

When you become my boss, I'll consider obeying your commands. Until then, screw you. I am using the names of those other believers that claim to be skeptics to push a point.

 

[voidx]

Hi all,

I have a degree in engineering, and am currently going for my MBA. Everyone who knows me agrees that I am as logical as they come. I have no burning desire to "believe" or "disbelieve" things...I just want to know the truth. I am not a religious person. I consider myself a skeptic.

Here is the main problem I have with this statement. I have some trouble taking you seriously as a skeptic. People often start off with the bit about being the most logical person they know and a skeptic. Yet you have no qualms claiming your incidents as ESP. In fact, its obvious this is what you want them to be as you actively try to poke holes in all explanations offered to you. Perhaps you're a person that has been disillisioned in their worldview and considers themselves a skeptic as a matter of rebelling against that worldview. But to see how convinced you appear to want to be that what you have experienced is in fact some form of ESP I must express doubt in the convinction of your apparent skepticism.

For example:

I am looking for an explanation that makes sense. I have no urge to believe in anything "weird" (other than it would be really cool to win a million dollars). I do not accept the explanations put forth so far because they involve improper recollection on my part (and while my memory is far from perfect, I knew something had happened on those instances that I couldn't explain, and I talked with others about it immediately), and/or the assumption that I jump to conclusions that mere coincidences reflect something paranormal (and I've tried to make my case that that is not so).

I do not know the date that the Wheel of Fortune episode ran, but I believe that the shows were not re-run during prime time. If someone were to present me evidence that prime-time WOF episodes during that time period were sometimes reruns, I would immediately think that the most logical explanation for that occurence.

In the first paragraph you discount the thoughts put forth that your memory recollection could possible have altered some of these facts. Your completely sure of them you reassure us. Yet in the second paragraph you show that you have no idea what the date was that the show occured. And you "believe" that the shows were not re-run during prime time. This leads us to start questioning what other parts of this story you "believe" rather than "know".

I'm not intentionally trying to be a jerk here, but we get people on here quite often that put us through the same exercise, yet it always takes the same form. I am simply of the opinion that you have come to your skepticism for different reasons than perhaps the rest of us on here, and think it shows somewhat in your discussions here.

Edited to correct horrendous late night spelling.

 

[T'ai Chi]

I guess not. As far as I can tell, Stereolab isn't making the claim that he can control his 'ESP', or predict when it will occur.

I thought that Stereolab didn't claim it was ESP.

He didn't say it was ESP, and that is precisely why I put ESP in quotes; because his experience could be said to be ESP-like, or approximately ESP, or 'ESP'.

Anyway, suggesting, as some have done, a controlled experiment to test Stereolab, seems moot in this case since he makes no claim, from what I can see, of being able to predict it or control it.

For the fourth time, please stay on topic. We are having a skeptical discussion about possibly testing 'ESP'; not singling out people, not Lucianarchy, and not Clancie.

When you become my boss, I'll consider obeying your commands. Until then, screw you. I am using the names of those other believers that claim to be skeptics to push a point.

I issued no commands, only suggestions for a skeptical discussion.

 

[Stereolab]

Re: Re: My "ESP" experiences

Here is the main problem I have with this statement. I have some trouble taking you seriously as a skeptic. People often start off with the bit about being the most logical person they know and a skeptic. Yet you have no qualms claiming your incidents as ESP. In fact, its obvious this is what you want them to be as you actively try to poke holes in all explanations offered to you. Perhaps you're a person that has been disillisioned in their worldview and considers themselves a skeptic as a matter of rebelling against that worldview. But to see how convinced you appear to want to be that what you have experienced is in fact some form of ESP I must express doubt in the convinction of your apparent skepticism.

For example:

In the first paragraph you discount the thoughts put forth that your memory recollection could possible have altered some of these facts. Your completely sure of them you reassure us. Yet in the second paragraph you show that you have no idea what the date was that the show occured. And you "believe" that the shows were not re-run during prime time. This leads us to start questioning what other parts of this story you "believe" rather than "know".

I'm not intentionally trying to be a jerk here, but we get people on here quite often that put us through the same exercise, yet it always takes the same form. I am simply of the opinion that you have come to your skepticism for different reasons than perhaps the rest of us on here, and think it shows somewhat in your discussions here.

Edited to correct horrendous late night spelling.

The interval between my KNOWING something, and that event taking place, has been roughly five to ten seconds each time. I have not been successful at, nor have I even attempted, setting up some kind of recording and documentation to be used in a double-blind testing procedure. And I sure couldn't have done it when I was 12.

I do not claim the events were ESP. I am stating that I don't know what they were.

While outsiders' speculations may certainly be useful at times, you have to understand that I have a unique understanding of these experiences that no one else could ever have.

Why are you all insisting to try and read so much into what I am saying? Stop getting hung up on "is he a skeptic or isn't he?" If I wasn't a skeptic, I would not have any reason to be posting here. I have no real desire to convince any of you of anything. I'm only looking for explanations that make sense. While I am appreciative of those people that have offered scientific explanations, which could certainly explain many events that might otherwise be called "ESP," I do not feel that these explanations are applicable to what I experienced. I really don't have any way to make my point further.

I admit I'm new to these forums. Perhaps you've been bombarded with so many jokesters and trolls and weirdos that you're conditioned to lash out at someone like me...someone who comes here simply looking for answers. Maybe only time, more time spent here, will convince you of my beliefs and intentions. Based on what I've seen so far, I'll likely take the skeptical "side" in 99% of topics in which I participate.

 

[renata]

I do not know the date that the Wheel of Fortune episode ran, but I believe that the shows were not re-run during prime time. If someone were to present me evidence that prime-time WOF episodes during that time period were sometimes reruns, I would immediately think that the most logical explanation for that occurence.

Since we do not know when it was aired, other than approximately 17 years ago, it is indeed diffucult. However, you can contact Wheel of Fortune producers and ask them.

Here is some food for thought. Wheel of Fortune premiered January 6, 1975. It is a syndicated show, has been since 1984, If we assume it runs 5 days a week, it means there would have been about 7500 episodes since the premiere (rounding up to 29 years, 52 weeks, 5 days a week). However, according to my tv channel, the episode showing this week is number 3966. Even assuming it played once a week from 1975-1984, and then 5 days a week since then, it would mean there would be 5600 episodes. (Someone please check my math, I am just doing a basic count). Furthermore, apparently from 1975-1991 there was a daytime version, and the nightime version was the one running in syndication. Now only the nighttime version remains. In other words, 17 years ago, you could have seen the same show in daytime and then, later- at night- in syndication!


So- not only is the show in syndication, and so you could have seen the show earlier, but there are simply not enough episodes to fill up all the years of original programming.

Sources for information above
http://www.gameshowfame.com/shows/wheeloffortune.htm
http://www.kingworld.com/about-KWP.htm
http://www.wheeloffortuneinfo.com/
http://www.cnn.com/2003/SHOWBIZ/TV/11/06/tv.wheeloffortune.ap/

 

[renata]

Re: Re: Re: My "ESP" experiences

I admit I'm new to these forums. Perhaps you've been bombarded with so many jokesters and trolls and weirdos that you're conditioned to lash out at someone like me...someone who comes here simply looking for answers.

Quibble- you are not new to the forums- why be shy? You registered here in July of 2002, and you made some posts in February and April of 2003. Granted, your activity is very high recently, you made several threads some interesting questions- such as- your potential ESP experience, herbal medicines, limb regeneration in humans- in the past 3 days but you are certainly not "new". How is that Atkins diet? Did you ever get hypnotized? Still curious about space aliens and their technologies?

I assume since you registered here a year and a half ago you lurked somewhat and saw how a skeptical board works.

 

[The Don]

Please let me know if you have ANY possible explanation for these occurences. I readily admit that I may not have thought about every possible explanation. But I've tried.

Please do NOT attack me personally. I will be happy to provide more details, and I am willing to present more of my credentials if need be. But I cannot stress enough that I am NOT exaggerating, and NOT trying to put one over on anyone.

Possible explanations:

- You are able to interpret electromagnetic radiation and resolve it into meaningful information
- You are able to receive and interpret telepathic information sent "like" electromagnetic radiation
- By some currently unexlpained phenomena, you have limited access to future occurences. Perhaps this is by shortcutting the spacetime continuum and taking a more direct route between the occurrence and yourself (thus getting prior knowledge)
- You are actually able to influence the future. Rather than merely predicting the future, you've actually managed to influence the future. In effect you made them chose that phrase, you influenced your colleague to ring you.
- You are deliberately fibbing abour what happened (very unlikely because you seemvery genuine)
- You have selectively remembered certain cases whre you have successfully predicted the future and forgotten the times you haven't

I think it unlikely that the being able to influence the future or receiving telepathic information is likely to be the cause. The reason for this is the Wheel of Fortune was pre-recorded and so you wouldn't be able to influence the future at that point in time. Likewise for the telapathy explanation, for thepre-recroded show you would have to have received the message many weeks in advance when the show was originally recorded.

If the premonitions were due to benig able to interpret electromagnetic information, you are lucky that the gift only comes infrequently. Otherwise, given the number of TV, radio and cellular phone transmissions, it's be like living in the tower of Babel.

Shortcutting spacetime is an intruiging notion. It takes a finite amount of time for anything happening a distance away to reach someone. In the case of teh telephone call, their intention to ring you was formed long before they made the call. A troublesome aspect of this is that we haven't yet got evidence of this kind of thing happening with highly energetic particles (where the weirdest stuff happens) - that doesn't mean that it could never happen, just that it hasn't yet.

I think we can completely eliminate lying as a possible explanation, I just added it to complete the list.

The most likely explanation is in my opinion, I'm afraid, that you've remembered the premonitions which have come to pass (because they are so interesting and exciting) and forgotten those which haven't.

 

[T'ai Chi]

Re: Re: My "ESP" experiences

- You are able to interpret electromagnetic radiation and resolve it into meaningful information
- You are able to receive and interpret telepathic information sent "like" electromagnetic radiation
- By some currently unexlpained phenomena, you have limited access to future occurences. Perhaps this is by shortcutting the spacetime continuum and taking a more direct route between the occurrence and yourself (thus getting prior knowledge)
- You are actually able to influence the future. Rather than merely predicting the future, you've actually managed to influence the future. In effect you made them chose that phrase, you influenced your colleague to ring you.
- You are deliberately fibbing abour what happened (very unlikely because you seemvery genuine)
- You have selectively remembered certain cases whre you have successfully predicted the future and forgotten the times you haven't

The most likely explanation is, I'm afraid, that you've remembered the premonitions which have come to pass (because they are so interesting and exciting) and forgotten those which haven't.

If that is the most likely, I'd like to see how you determined that.

Can you derive (and show your work) probabilities for all the various possibilities above?

 

[The Don]

I explained why I found the other explanations difficult to credit.

I will amend the post to say "in my opinion"

 

[Undodog]

Self styled sceptic – Type 1
“How does David Blaine fly?”
“Well. I’m afraid it’s 1% skill, and 98% editing and wirework”
“How disappointing.”
“Yeah”

Self styled sceptic – Type 2
“How does David Blaine fly?”
“Well. I’m afraid it’s 1% skill, and 98% editing and wirework”
“What?! That rubbish! He would never stoop so low. He was clearly exhausted after it and I don’t think you understand the powers he has.”

Self styled sceptic – Type 3
“How does David Blaine fly?”
“It’s obviously electromagnets!”

Looks to me like Stereolab is Type1. Some of you are treating him like Type2 and acting like Type3.

-

As a suggestion for the Wheel of Fortune experience I would say that it seems odd that the question for ‘The Land of Oz’ was ‘Place’ and not ‘Fictional Place’.
That tiny detail remembered wrongly 17 years later could make all the difference.
If I was about 12 and I had to name a fictional place it’s probably the first one I would think of.

 

[Undodog]

I meant 99%. Shhh! Its monday morning here.

 

[Mercutio]

Anyway, suggesting, as some have done, a controlled experiment to test Stereolab, seems moot in this case since he makes no claim, from what I can see, of being able to predict it or control it. [/B]

Control it? No. Predict it? Yes. He KNOWS these ones...admittedly rarely, and, he adds, with only seconds advanced warning. Still, this is enough for an adequate test. Perhaps an hour a day at an automated ESP test, and it may be a year before we get a KNOWN event. It may be considerably less. We don't know yet. Suppose it took a couple of years to find a handful of data points? I can think of a million reasons to keep looking.

Sure, this is a difficult claim to evaluate, but it is by no means impossible.

 

[Stereolab]

Re: Re: Re: Re: My "ESP" experiences

Quibble- you are not new to the forums- why be shy? You registered here in July of 2002, and you made some posts in February and April of 2003. Granted, your activity is very high recently, you made several threads some interesting questions- such as- your potential ESP experience, herbal medicines, limb regeneration in humans- in the past 3 days but you are certainly not "new". How is that Atkins diet? Did you ever get hypnotized? Still curious about space aliens and their technologies?

I assume since you registered here a year and a half ago you lurked somewhat and saw how a skeptical board works.

I figured someone was going to call me out on that, since it says 2002 right under my name. I did register and post a few times quite a while ago; but while I have read Randi's commentaries every now and then, I haven't lurked in the forums hardly at all until recently. I did, however, know exactly what I was getting into when I posted this.

 

[Stereolab]

Looks to me like Stereolab is Type1. Some of you are treating him like Type2 and acting like Type3.


As a suggestion for the Wheel of Fortune experience I would say that it seems odd that the question for ‘The Land of Oz’ was ‘Place’ and not ‘Fictional Place’.
That tiny detail remembered wrongly 17 years later could make all the difference.
If I was about 12 and I had to name a fictional place it’s probably the first one I would think of.

Good observations.

After I logged off last night, I was thinking of how a conversation on this board might have gone if I'd have seen a Stealth Bomber flying around in the '80's, before it was declassified.

"Hey, I just saw the strangest thing flying around in the sky. It didn't look like any plane I have ever seen. It was flat, and triangular, and had this zig-zag pattern in the back, and went really fast but didn't make any noise."

"So, you're saying you're sure it wasn't a kite? And you're sure you didn't just dream it, or you're not just remembering it incorrectly? And you weren't on drugs? Well then, you're just a 'believer', and you think intergalactic space pirates are here to harvest the intestines of our livestock. Bob believes that, too."

As for "Place" vs. "Fictional Place"...I am going to try and check on that. I agree that that would be an important detail.