Muslims Self-Criticism

[The Fool]

Ooh, tinfoil hat time again. Sorry, I thought for a moment there you expressed an interest in looking at and discussing historical data that showed a different side from your favored position. I see I was mistaken.

It doesn't matter to me how many times you use the tinfoil hat line to avoid the fact you will not answer.

simply put....you claim I am cherry picking quotes that confirm the goals of the zionist movement are that Israel should occupy the entire british mandate, all the "god given" lands. I say that in order to be cherry picking there must be some alternate material I am deliberately avoiding....you tell me there are many of them....I ask you to show me one.....you change the subject and/or say I'm a conspiracy theorist....rinse and repeat.

Now if you intend to continue down this line forever just let me know and I'll stop wasting my time asking things you have no intention of answering.

 

[zenith-nadir]

show me one....just one map of israel that you agree accurately documents its current borders. I know you "believe" you can do this, you can even claim you can do it if you like.....until you do its just more of the same hot air.

I am not your map-finding-bitch. There are hundreds of sources for Israeli maps at Google. Perhaps *you* could find for the JREF readers the "Israeli expansion conspiracy theory map" you endlessly speak of.

Israel has no borders, it simply has not yet finished taking the land it wants, the land a god has promised . You will support them in whatever god promised land they want to take. You can't ever agree on a fixed border because then you would have to explain the taking of more land in excess of those borders.

Prove it...enough saying it...prove it...document it. Saying the "Israeli expansion conspiracy theory" 1000 times does not make it true you fool.

do you realise how silly this makes you look....being unable to answer such a simple question as where do Israels legitimate borders lie?

Not as silly as constantly reapeating the "Israeli expansion conspiracy theory" 1000 times and never ever once backing it up with a shred of evidence.

 

[zenith-nadir]

By the way I *have* noticed how the JREF "Axis of Intolerance" has derailed this thread from one of Muslim self-criticism to the "Israeli expansion conspiracy theory".... yet again.

 

[a_unique_person]

Well since this *is* a skeptics board your "word" is not good enough to prove a policy for Israel's government. Care to provide the d-o-c-u-m-e-n-t-a-t-i-o-n for this "very public policy".

And I love the "removing the settlements in Gaza only confirm it"....removing settlements confirms Israel's expansion policy.....brilliant!

You perhaps haven't noticed the uproar over this proposal.

 

[a_unique_person]

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/09/26/1096137090518.htm

Rodgers understands that "settlements give Palestinians a tangible reason to go on hating and attacking Israelis", and outlines the ludicrous pronouncements of US presidents and Israeli leaders that peace could be achieved while "almost every day, they [the Palestinians] saw more of the one-fifth of Palestine that might have been their state consumed by settlements". Recent tacit acceptance by US President George Bush of Israeli leader Ariel Sharon's plan to expand settlement activity makes a mockery of every so-called road map to peace.

Rodgers is also scathing about subsequent Israeli leaders who have shown, without fail, a disdain and virulent racism towards Palestinians. Take the example of Golda Meir, Israel's third prime minister: "Who are the Palestinians? I am a Palestinian." Even the language of the dispute remains in question, not dissimilarly to the current nonsensical war on terror. "The violence of the other side was 'terrorism'," writes Rodgers, while "one's own was legitimate 'self-defence': both positions often resting on a bedrock of hypocrisy. Both Jews and Palestinians employed terrorism in pursuit of their political goals." This endless list includes PLO leader Yasser Arafat and every Israeli prime minister since 1948. It is the kind of terrorism rarely discussed in the West, because much of it is in fact "our terrorism", as John Pilger has said. How many believe that Western state-sponsored violence, such as Israel's, is in fact terrorism at all?

The struggle for Israel's soul seems as far removed today as ever. Although acknowledging that suicide bombing has harmed the Palestinian cause, along with corrupt and ineffectual leadership, Rodgers's conclusions will make unpleasant reading for supporters of the Jewish state. Labelling any criticisms of Israel as anti-Semitism in an attempt to stifle debate should no longer be acceptable to those who desperately want peace in the region.

This is an essential and immensely readable plea for understanding and will open the eyes of intransigents on all sides. Allow a final word from Israeli politician Avraham Burg, who wrote last year: "It turns out that a 2000-year struggle for Jewish survival comes down to a state of settlements, run by an amoral clique or corrupt law-breakers who are deaf both to their citizens and their enemies."

Ideology has overtaken common sense.

 

[a_unique_person]

I am not your map-finding-bitch. There are hundreds of sources for Israeli maps at Google. Perhaps *you* could find for the JREF readers the "Israeli expansion conspiracy theory map" you endlessly speak of.Prove it...enough saying it...prove it...document it. Saying the "Israeli expansion conspiracy theory" 1000 times does not make it true you fool.Not as silly as constantly reapeating the "Israeli expansion conspiracy theory" 1000 times and never ever once backing it up with a shred of evidence.

What are all the settlements?

 

[The Fool]

I am not your map-finding-bitch. There are hundreds of sources for Israeli maps at Google. Perhaps *you* could find for the JREF readers the "Israeli expansion conspiracy theory map" you endlessly speak of.Prove it...enough saying it...prove it...document it. Saying the "Israeli expansion conspiracy theory" 1000 times does not make it true you fool.Not as silly as constantly reapeating the "Israeli expansion conspiracy theory" 1000 times and never ever once backing it up with a shred of evidence.

Lol...now you throw a tantrum....this always seems to happen some time after you realise you are stuck without an answer.

I have shown quite a few references and quotes from the founders of the Zionist movement that explain in quite specific terms that the aim of the zionist movement is a Jewish nation occupying the lands that are promised to them by thier god. Mycrofts approach is to claim that I am cherrypicking although he seems unable to come up with alternate zionist views....from a single zionists....not even his own views! You are seemingly unable to propose what is the alternative to this often stated position either....but at least your tantrums are more entertaining than mycrofts sidesteps.

Have you ever wondered how silly you look? Its a simple question...what are the borders of Israel. I'm sure you would love to answer it. You do have an independant thought process don't you? you are able to think for yourself ? come on ZN stick your neck out, take a chance.... Maybe you could get together with some other true believers and work on a joint answer?

I also notice you are picking up skeptics bad habit of fabricating quotes...I would seriously encourage you to try as best you can to not put words in quotes and claim i have said them unless I actually did say them...its called lying and its naughty.

 

[zenith-nadir]

Lol...now you throw a tantrum....this always seems to happen some time after you realise you are stuck without an answer.

The "answer" is I am not your slave and you can look up maps for yourself. Any map I post you will claim is fraudulent, so why bother.

I have shown quite a few references and quotes from the founders of the Zionist movement that explain in quite specific terms that the aim of the zionist movement is a Jewish nation occupying the lands that are promised to them by thier god.

Well the biggest problem with your conspiracy theory is that these so-called founders of the Zionist movement are frikkin dead and do not make Israeli government policy in 2004.

Mycrofts approach is to claim that I am cherrypicking although he seems unable to come up with alternate zionist views....from a single zionists....not even his own views! You are seemingly unable to propose what is the alternative to this often stated position either....but at least your tantrums are more entertaining than mycrofts sidesteps.

Yawn...validate your own greatness if you wish even if it is based on a conspiracy theory perpetuated by using the statements of dead people. The rest of your post is not even worthy of comment.

 

[a_unique_person]

The "answer" is I am not your slave and you can look up maps for yourself. Any map I post you will claim is fraudulent, so why bother.

Well the biggest problem with your conspiracy theory is that these so-called founders of the Zionist movement are frikkin dead and do not make Israeli government policy in 2004.

Yawn...validate your own greatness if you wish even if it is based on a conspiracy theory perpetuated by using the statements of dead people. The rest of your post is not even worthy of comment.

The following quote was written by an economist, but you get the general idea.

".. the ideas of economists and political philosophers, both when they are right and when they are wrong, are more powerful than is commonly understood. Indeed the world is ruled by little else. Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influences, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist.

Madmen in authority, who hear voices in the air, are distilling their frenzy from some academic scribbler of a few years back."

John Maynard Keynes.

 

[zenith-nadir]

The following quote was written by an economist, but you get the general idea.

Economists and political philosophers do not make Israeli government policy with regards to the borders of Israel in 2004. You and the fool can quote John Maynard Keynes, Genghis Khan, Plato and Mike Tyson if you wish to make your conspiracy theory real if you want. That still has nothing to do with Muslims Self-Criticism or the current borders of Israel.

 

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by The Fool
It doesn't matter to me how many times you use the tinfoil hat line to avoid the fact you will not answer.

simply put....you claim I am cherry picking quotes that confirm the goals of the zionist movement are that Israel should occupy the entire british mandate, all the "god given" lands. I say that in order to be cherry picking there must be some alternate material I am deliberately avoiding....you tell me there are many of them....I ask you to show me one.....you change the subject and/or say I'm a conspiracy theorist....rinse and repeat.

Now if you intend to continue down this line forever just let me know and I'll stop wasting my time asking things you have no intention of answering.

I say “tinfoil hat” because you go a little crazy at the subject. Then again, your participation in other subjects seems limited to one-liners, so you may be this way anytime you put three or more paragraphs together.

Okay, let's revisit your response:

Originally posted by The Fool
As usual you seek to try to lecture me on something irrelevant. you cannot find a single zionist position that advocates anything other than occupying the entire british mandate.

Well, no. The very map that started this didn't include the entire British Mandate, so you're wrong there. At the time of its proposal, it was barely 30% of the mandate area. It only seems large when you compare it to the much smaller borders of modern Israel.

Originally posted by The Fool
Instead you repeat thier pathetic platitudes that when they have all the land they promise to be nice to the original population.....

No again. The quotes I provided talked about respecting everyone's rights from the beginning, regardless of territory.

Originally posted by The Fool
So have you officially given up looking for an alternate zionist position to the one you claim I "cherry picked"?

The issue was revisited again in 1931. At the Zionist Congress in Basil, a minority faction called revisionists demanded that the congress adopt a resolution declaring the purpose of Zionism to be to establish a Jewish state conforming to the borders in the 1919 proposal. The refusal of the Zionist Congress to do so created a schism, with the revisionists leaving to start their own competing organization, which was short-lived.

So, if we can see that this 1919 map was not policy 73 years ago, why should anyone have to prove it is not the policy of today except to answer someone's lunatic conspiracy theory?

 

[The Fool]

Well, no. The very map that started this didn't include the entire British Mandate, so you're wrong there. At the time of its proposal, it was barely 30% of the mandate area. It only seems large when you compare it to the much smaller borders of modern Israel.

Thats nice mycroft but where are the borders of Israel? Just point to one line and say "thats it" can you do that? No you cannot, because you would have to critisize Israel for expanding past it and you are not allowed to do that.


The issue was revisited again in 1931. At the Zionist Congress in Basil, a minority faction called revisionists demanded that the congress adopt a resolution declaring the purpose of Zionism to be to establish a Jewish state conforming to the borders in the 1919 proposal. The refusal of the Zionist Congress to do so created a schism, with the revisionists leaving to start their own competing organization, which was short-lived.

So, if we can see that this 1919 map was not policy 73 years ago, why should anyone have to prove it is not the policy of today except to answer someone's lunatic conspiracy theory?

Thats nice mycroft....what was the alternative proposal? I'll tell you if you can't figure it out. The alternative to the biblical borders is the "shhhhh, say nothing" borders....otherwise known as the "change the subject" borders. Where are they? I'm not going to tell you....Where are they? Gee those Yankees are doing well this season.

 

[The Fool]

The "answer" is I am not your slave and you can look up maps for yourself. Any map I post you will claim is fraudulent, so why bother.

well I'll make it very easy for you...just label the map ZN's opinion of the justifiable limit to Israels expansion. That can never be labelled fraudulent because it is simply your opinion


Well the biggest problem with your conspiracy theory is that these so-called founders of the Zionist movement are frikkin dead and do not make Israeli government policy in 2004.

you are right, they don't make Israeli government policy in 2004...so tell us what is the Israeli government policy on what the limit is to the expansion of Israel. Is it the say nothing policy or the change the subject policy?

Yawn...validate your own greatness if you wish even if it is based on a conspiracy theory perpetuated by using the statements of dead people. The rest of your post is not even worthy of comment.
I'm happy to use your comments if you like, you are not dead are you? come on ZN don't let fear hold you back....what is the justifiable limit of Israeli expansion?

 

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by The Fool
Thats nice mycroft but where are the borders of Israel? Just point to one line and say "thats it" can you do that? No you cannot, because you would have to critisize Israel for expanding past it and you are not allowed to do that.

Not allowed by whom?

 

[zenith-nadir]

Not allowed by whom?

Why the spirits of the dead 'zionists' Mycroft. You know the ones who control Israeli policy and the media...

 

[Mycroft]

Why the spirits of the dead 'zionists' Mycroft. You know the ones who control Israeli policy and the media...

They might cancel my Zionist Quarterly newsletter.

 

[The Fool]

They might cancel my Zionist Quarterly newsletter.

nice change of subject, its nice to see you varying the two allowable responses....the ignore and the change of subject.

You are curious as to why you are not allowed to critisize Israel? well, honestly, so am I. I suppose its the same reason that you support people who use racists slurs as long as they are unquestioning israel supporters and the same reason you support liars as long as they are unquestioning supporters of Israel.

You are a free person mycroft so I can only assume its a self imposed form of solidarity/loyalty. Personally, I would not judge those that you give your unquestioning support to as being worthy of such loyalty....but we all have our own standards where that is concerned.

maybe you could tell me why so I don't have to speculate?


ok, change of subject over??? care to hit us with your opinion of the legitimate borders of Israel?

 

[The Fool]

Why the spirits of the dead 'zionists' Mycroft. You know the ones who control Israeli policy and the media...

Have you still got the simple question in the too hard basket? Maybe its time for you to change the subject...may I suggest Aboriginal land rights in australia? thats normally your subject change topic of choice.

 

[Mycroft]

I suppose its the same reason that you support people who use racists slurs as long as they are unquestioning israel supporters and the same reason you support liars as long as they are unquestioning supporters of Israel.

Are you going to support these allegations? Or are you going to ignore them like you did the last time I asked you to back up your words?

Edited to add: Accusing your oponent of racism is your usual way of changing the subject and running away.

 

[a_unique_person]

Not allowed by whom?

By yourself, of course.