Muslims Self-Criticism

[Mycroft]

The invasion was by Israel. The goal was never anything less than a state that was Zionist.

Of course their goal was a state that was Zionist, but "Zionist" means return to zion. Time and time again they talked about respecting the political and religious rights of the non-Jews.

You can describe immigrating refugees fleeing persecution as "invading" all you want, but it still comes down to Arabs organizing riots and pogroms because they didn't want to live next to someone who was a different race/religion than they were.

Maybe I should go shoot a russian. We've had quite a few immigrating to my part of the country, and if we get enough of them, they may want to elect themselves into government.

 

[a_unique_person]

Of course their goal was a state that was Zionist, but "Zionist" means return to zion. Time and time again they talked about respecting the political and religious rights of the non-Jews.

You can describe immigrating refugees fleeing persecution as "invading" all you want, but it still comes down to Arabs organizing riots and pogroms because they didn't want to live next to someone who was a different race/religion than they were.

Maybe I should go shoot a russian. We've had quite a few immigrating to my part of the country, and if we get enough of them, they may want to elect themselves into government.

Talk is cheap. The real evidence is the settlements, that have never stopped growing.

Once again, the strawman is rolled out. Are you taking over skeptic's role?

 

[zenith-nadir]

Talk is cheap. The real evidence is the settlements, that have never stopped growing.

Once again, the strawman is rolled out. Are you taking over skeptic's role?

Palestinian terrorism began before "settlements" in the West Bank and Gaza, before "Sharon", before "the wall". Palestinian terrorism began in the 1920s with the Grand Mufti, Haj Muhammed Amin al-Husseini. Secondly the ever growing settlements in Gaza are going away, yet the attacks still continue from within Gaza...crazy huh? The only place on Earth jews can not and should not live is the West Bank - simply because they are jewish - isn't that right a_u_p...but that's not racist or xenophobic in anyway....

 

[a_unique_person]

Palestinian terrorism began before "settlements" in the West Bank and Gaza, before "Sharon", before "the wall". Palestinian terrorism began in the 1920s with the Grand Mufti, Haj Muhammed Amin al-Husseini. Secondly the ever growing settlements in Gaza are going away, yet the attacks still continue from within Gaza...crazy huh? The only place on Earth jews can not and should not live is the West Bank - simply because they are jewish - isn't that right a_u_p...but that's not racist or xenophobic in anyway....

Arab protests against Zionism began in 1891, when the first arrivals of Zionist settlers began.

 

[Nikk]

The only place on Earth jews can not and should not live is the West Bank - simply because they are jewish - isn't that right a_u_p...but that's not racist or xenophobic in anyway....

So then you support the return of palestinian refugees and their descendents to the land they owned and occupied in Israel, naturally with full civil rights.

It would after all be racist and xenophobic not to.

 

[zenith-nadir]

Arab protests against Zionism began in 1891, when the first arrivals of Zionist settlers began.

After all there's nothing wrong with hating immigrants based on their different religion...after all protests and riots are the "normal" way to conduct business when it comes to dealing with those pesky immigrating 'zionists'. Dialogue and tolerance?...those are silly concepts...

So then you support the return of palestinian refugees and their descendents to the land they owned and occupied in Israel, naturally with full civil rights. It would after all be racist and xenophobic not to.

Palestinians that left Israel 50 years ago are going to move where exactly? Tel Aviv? Haifa? Netanya? Old folks homes? Most of the Palestinians that left are retired grandparents sipping coffee at the cafe in Beirut or Damascus. What will their offspring do for work? Who's houses will they move into? Will Palestinians live in Israel under a jewish government? Who will pay to move them and support them until they find work? What skills do they bring to support themselves and their families without UNRWA?

It's soooooo easy to say "right of return" but logistically there are huge problems with moving 4 million descendants of Palestinian refugees into a place most of them have never seen.

 

[epepke]

After all there's nothing wrong with hating immigrants based on their different religion...after all protests and riots are the "normal" way to conduct business when it comes to dealing with those pesky immigrating 'zionists'. Dialogue and tolerance?...those are silly concepts...

That's why we in the US have regular suicide bombings against the Irish. And it's all justified.

Oh, wait. We don't.

 

[Nikk]

The question was if they are accurate or not.....The question is not if they are from one of your favourite neo-con sites or not.....

are they accurate or not? I'll assume you running from this simple question as confirmation that it was just more of your campagn of spreading lies for propaganda purposes.

Fascinating isn't it. When the preeminent figure in the Zionist movement argues that Arabs should be ethnicly cleansed ( genocide by modern standards ) the Palestinians are supposed to trust in the Zionists good faith and assume that what he REALLY MEANS is " I want to create a tolerant multicultural society".

Laughable.

 

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
Talk is cheap. The real evidence is the settlements, that have never stopped growing.

Ah, here you go again. Just shift your time frame by 20 years and hope nobody notices.

Originally posted by a_unique_person
Once again, the strawman is rolled out. Are you taking over skeptic's role?

It's not a strawman. Your entire argument is that the normal, sympathetic and justified response of anyone threatened to lose their status as the ethnic majority is to kill people.

 

[Nikk]

It's soooooo easy to say "right of return" but logistically there are huge problems with moving 4 million descendants of Palestinian refugees into a place most of them have never seen.

Have these huge logistical problems stopped you accepting Jewish immigrants recently. How many Jews who have never seen the country have you accepted in the last 20 years? One million? Two million?

The current situation is that a Palestinian paedeatrician whose father owned a house in Haifa and was forced to flee has no right of return but a jewish pimp from Plymouth whose ancestors haven't seen the place in 2000 years does have a right of return. Logistical poblems eh?

And now I must do some real work. Keep the lies coming.

 

[zenith-nadir]

Have these huge logistical problems stopped you accepting Jewish immigrants recently. How many Jews who have never seen the country have you accepted in the last 20 years? One million? Two million?

Israel is just under 6 million people. What do you think would happen to 4 million Arab Palestinians if they were to suddenly move to a country that they don't speak the language and have never seen? Do you think they would be happy? Do you think they would succeed? There are not 4 million vacant properties so where they going to house 4 million new immigrants Nikk? You can scream 'right of return' all you want, but I don't think you have thought out what 'right of return' means and the logistics involved with it. The ironic part is that Palestinian Arabs who have lived in Lebanon for 50 years aren't even Lebanese citizens..yet that is not an issue is it...

The current situation is that a Palestinian paedeatrician whose father owned a house in Haifa and was forced to flee has no right of return but a jewish pimp from Plymouth whose ancestors haven't seen the place in 2000 years does have a right of return. Logistical poblems eh? And now I must do some real work. Keep the lies coming.

Now you asre just being childish.

 

[Mycroft]

The current situation is that a Palestinian paedeatrician whose father owned a house in Haifa and was forced to flee has no right of return but a jewish pimp from Plymouth whose ancestors haven't seen the place in 2000 years does have a right of return. Logistical poblems eh?

Personally I think it would be great if in an environment of peace, compensation and/or return could be worked out with each and every person who lost property or is descended from someone who lost property. That's fair, I'm always in favor of correcting injustices. The irrational thing is demanding it outside of the context of peace, or making it a condition of peace.

Far worse than having lost property in a war 55 years ago is being kept in a state of perpetual victimhood, where you're not allowed to be anything other than a refugee for generations. Bad stuff happened to my ancestors too, thank God nobody is keeping me from moving on with my life just to make some political point.

 

[davefoc]

Originally posted by Nikk
The current situation is that a Palestinian paedeatrician whose father owned a house in Haifa and was forced to flee has no right of return but a jewish pimp from Plymouth whose ancestors haven't seen the place in 2000 years does have a right of return. Logistical poblems eh? And now I must do some real work. Keep the lies coming.

Response by ZN
Now you are just being childish.

ZN, is there any part of you that can admit that the founders and the current leadership of Israel wanted a Jewish state with a substantial Jewish majority?

Is there any part of you that can admit that this goal was going to conflict with the rights of an indigenous population.

Is there any part of you that can admit that Palestinians are not some uniquely evil indigenous population that have opposed their displacement by an immigrating population?

Nikk's question goes exactly to what you work so hard to deny. Israel is and has been actively working to displace a non-Jewish population with a Jewish population. It attempts to recruit Jews from all over the world regardless of whether they speak Hebrew, regardless of their economic status to populate Israel. It doesn't seek out any other ethnic group. It absolutely denies Palestinians any right of return. Even Palestinians who fled Israel directly as the result of Israeli massacres and Israeli terrorist campaigns.

Despite all of the above, mamy of us would argue with you that it is time to get past the right of return as a necessary element in a peace settlement. Many of us would argue that the removal of the recent (meaning within the last 100 years) European immigrants and their ancestors from what is Israel today would be a great wrong. But many of us would also argue that the time is long overdue when the real nature of the formation Israel be acknowledged and the real injustices that were done to the indigenous population be acknowledged.

Many people in Israel seem willing to do this. Why do you suppose that you can not make the slightest acknowledgement of the suffering of the Palestinians that is a direct result of the formation and expansion of Israel?

Have you ever contemplated how you would feel about this if you were a Palestinian? Suppose part of your family had been wiped out in one of the massacres that occurred during the 1948 war? Suppose today you were listening to some Israeli apologist spout off about how your family didn't leave because they were afraid of being massacred rather they left voluntarily beacause some unidentified Arab leader told them to?

 

[epepke]

Personally I think it would be great if in an environment of peace, compensation and/or return could be worked out with each and every person who lost property or is descended from someone who lost property. That's fair, I'm always in favor of correcting injustices. The irrational thing is demanding it outside of the context of peace, or making it a condition of peace.

Far worse than having lost property in a war 55 years ago is being kept in a state of perpetual victimhood, where you're not allowed to be anything other than a refugee for generations. Bad stuff happened to my ancestors too, thank God nobody is keeping me from moving on with my life just to make some political point.

Right on!

Just one question. Do I get back the land of my ancestors in Dearborn, Michigan that is now being held by Palestinians?

 

[zenith-nadir]

ZN, is there any part of you that can admit that the founders and the current leadership of Israel wanted a Jewish state with a substantial Jewish majority? Is there any part of you that can admit that this goal was going to conflict with the rights of an indigenous population.

Here's my take on it. There were zionists/jews who yearned to live in their ancestral homeland. So they began to buy up as much land as they could until WW2 happened. As they were buying up land fanatics like Mohammad Amin al-Husayni began to pevert Islam and call for jihad, he went so far as to conspire with Hitler and the Third Reich in order to fulfill his jihad.

Then WW2 happened.

Europe felt soooooooooo guilty about WW2 that they decided to get rid of the jews once and for all in a place called Palestine. So the UN passed Resolution 181 to divide Palestine between the Jews and Arabs. The jews were thrilled, the Arabs responded by invading on May 15th 1948 with the combined forces of Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Iraq, Saudi Arabia and Lebanon.

Were there hardships? Yes. Were there war crimes on both sides? Yes. Did people suffer on both sides? Yes. Was it a war in every meaning of the word? Yes. Had the combined forces of Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Iraq, Saudi Arabia and Lebanon not invaded on May 15th 1948 would history be different? Probably.

The combined forces of Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Iraq, Saudi Arabia and Lebanon LOST the war. They didn't win the war, they lost. So to the losers go the spoils? Hardly. They also LOST the wars in 1956, 1967, 1973 and are still losing the war today using the Palestinians as a proxy.

If those decades of loss and suffering are not enough for some Arabs to look inward and say "hey, maybe we should try something different" then I dunno what is cause to look inward.

I admit many injustices heaped upon the Palestinians by the creation of Israel. I have no problem with that in any way shape or form. I admit that Israel has made mistakes and done things I do not agree with, like continued building of settlements in the West Bank.

But if you think I am going to disregard the Arab half of the story - Mohammad Amin al-Husayni & Hitler, lost war after lost war, terrorism from the Munich Olympics to the Rome Airport to restaurants in Jerusalem or buses in Tel Aviv - then I am sorry I cannot disregard those facts on the ground which have shaped the world the Palestinians live in today.

I have said time and time again that there is a difference between Palestinian civilians and Palestinian militants. I don't think Palestinians are evil, that is insane to think that way. I think the leaders of the Palestinian Authority, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Al Aksa, Fateh and the PLFP are evil...who unfortunately happen to be Palestinians. I dunno what planet you'all have been on but before Al Queda and Osama there was the PLO and Arafat, and I haven't forgotten who the PLO and Arafat are and what they did during the 1960s, 70s and 80s. Look what the PLO...er...Palestinian Authority and Arafat have done to the Palestinians since taking over in 1996.

I can blame jewish immigrants till the cows come home...I just refuse to excuse and dismiss the Arab side of the equation as easily as some of you do.

 

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by davefoc
ZN, is there any part of you that can admit that the founders and the current leadership of Israel wanted a Jewish state with a substantial Jewish majority?

So? If you were living on a farm in Pennsylvania, and a bunch of Amish people started buying land around you and moving in, and one of them mentioned to you that their goal was to create a new Amish community, at what point do you think it would be appropriate to start organizing riots and maybe kill a few of them?

Personally I'd look at other options. I might:

1) Keep to myself and run my farm like I always have.

2) Get to know them better, maybe work with them somehow.

3) If I really didn't like them and couldn't stand living in a community dominated by people who are different, I might offer to sell my land to them and set up shop somewhere else.

Originally posted by davefoc Is there any part of you that can admit that this goal was going to conflict with the rights of an indigenous population.

I suppose this depends on what you consider the rights of an indigenous population to be. If you think they have an inalienable right to maintain to maintain an ethnically pure society, then I would certainly agree that Zionism “conflicted” with that “right”.

Originally posted by davefoc Is there any part of you that can admit that Palestinians are not some uniquely evil indigenous population that have opposed their displacement by an immigrating population?

I think the leaders of the various terrorist factions are. The people are a product of some 80 years of indoctrination.

Originally posted by davefoc
Nikk's question goes exactly to what you work so hard to deny. Israel is and has been actively working to displace a non-Jewish population with a Jewish population.

What, you mean the settlements? Not really, a settlement doesn't cause any Palestinian-Arab to move out of the West Bank.

Originally posted by davefoc
It attempts to recruit Jews from all over the world regardless of whether they speak Hebrew, regardless of their economic status to populate Israel. It doesn't seek out any other ethnic group.

So? Neighboring Jordan favors Arabs in their immigration policies. Any Arab except Palestinian-Arab, that is.

Originally posted by davefoc
It absolutely denies Palestinians any right of return. Even Palestinians who fled Israel directly as the result of Israeli massacres and Israeli terrorist campaigns.

See my comments above. I absolutely favor allowing people who have lost property to reclaim them or be compensated somehow. It should be done in a context of peace. The twentieth century has seen tens of millions of people displaced by various wars, many have received reparations, many have not. These people are not any different.

Originally posted by davefoc
Despite all of the above, mamy of us would argue with you that it is time to get past the right of return as a necessary element in a peace settlement. Many of us would argue that the removal of the recent (meaning within the last 100 years) European immigrants and their ancestors from what is Israel today would be a great wrong.

Okay, I agree. Part of ”getting past” means figuring out where to go from here, and part of that means acknowledging that grampa becoming a refugee 55 years ago is not a good reason to encourage your son to put on an explosive belt today.

Originally posted by davefoc
But many of us would also argue that the time is long overdue when the real nature of the formation Israel be acknowledged and the real injustices that were done to the indigenous population be acknowledged.

Nobody denies that injustices happened. The issue for me is the bigots who want to characterize immigration as displacement, buying land as stealing, and self-defense as ethnic cleansing. The ”real nature” of Zionism is that a bunch of people realized that the only way to achieve emancipation was to also achieve self-determination. What happened since was the product of a lot of mistakes by many people (Arab, Jew, European) and many events beyond the control of anyone. To vilify the Zionists and only the Zionists is nothing more and nothing less than bigotry.

 

[E.J.Armstrong]

originally posted by zenith-nadir...not E.J. or any other muslim apologist...

If you mean that I often highlight your lies about people including, amongst others, Muslims in the many threads you and Mycroft start about Palestinians, Muslims, Muslim countries and Islam, then I am proud to stand up for accuracy and the facts and against your sort of falsification.

 

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by epepke
Right on!

Thanks.

Originally posted by epepke
Just one question. Do I get back the land of my ancestors in Dearborn, Michigan that is now being held by Palestinians?

That depends. Are you willing to sacrifice your children in a suicide mission to kill civilians somewhere?

 

[zenith-nadir]

If you mean that I often highlight your lies about people including, amongst others, Muslims in the many threads you and Mycroft start about Palestinians, Muslims, Muslim countries and Islam, then I am proud to stand up for accuracy and the facts and against your sort of falsification.

 

[E.J.Armstrong]

originally posted by zenith-nadirAn icon.

Does that mean that when you claimed elsewhere that 'Nor am I going to excuse the failure of the Palestinian Authority's to hold elections, it's corruption and incompetence because some jewish zealot nutball squatted inside a palestinians shop. But you will.' that you can actually foretell the future?