Muslims Self-Criticism

[a_unique_person]

Economists and political philosophers do not make Israeli government policy with regards to the borders of Israel in 2004. You and the fool can quote John Maynard Keynes, Genghis Khan, Plato and Mike Tyson if you wish to make your conspiracy theory real if you want. That still has nothing to do with Muslims Self-Criticism or the current borders of Israel.

It has everything to do with it. The way that people are trapped in the ideas of others and not even aware of it.

 

[The Fool]

Are you going to support these allegations? Or are you going to ignore them like you did the last time I asked you to back up your words?

Edited to add: Accusing your oponent of racism is your usual way of changing the subject and running away.

do you really want me to dredge up (yet again) all the racist statements of "skeptic" that you defended? When I label someone a racist I am more than willing to cite the exact racist words they used...I aften get critisized for repeating these words too often. Now you want to claim I don't?

So do you want me to drag them all up again....including your defence of them as being not racist? There is a search facility on this forum I would suggest the keywords skeptic and racist are a good starting point.

I'll give you top points for this post....a change of subject by accusing me of changing subjects LOL......

Still not interested in the borders question? I'll even do you a deal...I'll happily answer 10 questions nominated by you if you will answer that single question and tell me where the legitimate borders of Israel are.

 

[The Fool]

double

 

[davefoc]

OK,
I've seen The Fool's "where are the borders of Israel?" question dodged numerous times in numberous threads so I've decided to help things along.

I will take a shot at what I think Mycroft and ZN's answer actually is based on what I have devined from their various posts on the Palestine/Israel situation.

Mycroft:
The borders should be negotiated with the needs of both parties taken into account when all or nearly all violence is ended by the Palestinian terrorists. Criticism of Israel for its continued expansion into what most of the world considers Palestinian territory is not justified while any significant violence continues against Israel. If some part of the Palestinians continue violence against Israel then Israel expansion to the biblical borders is justified. However the indigenous population shouldn't be forcefully ejected. But creating isolated reservations occupied and controlled by the Israeli military might be an unfortunate necessity.

ZN:
Israel is the land of the Jews because Jews have been in this land before the time of David and have been in this land ever since. The indigenous population that existed before the large migrations of Jews to Israel after WWII don't really have much right to their lands because they weren't part of a formal country, and the immigrating population did make an attempt to buy some of the land from them and besides they're Arabs and they can just live in one of the Arab countries. So even though the current violence isn't a justification for the continued expansion of Israel, the fact that some Palestinians have been attacking Israel means that for security reasons the expanison of Israel eventually into what will be all of greater Israel is proper and justified. This is the unfortuanate pain that Palestinians must endure because of their stupidity in continuing to be led by the likes of Arafat.

 

[epepke]

OK,
I've seen The Fool's "where are the borders of Israel?" question dodged numerous times in numberous threads so I've decided to help things along.

I will take a shot at what I think Mycroft and ZN's answer actually is based on what I have devined from their various posts on the Palestine/Israel situation.

Mycroft:
The borders should be negotiated with the needs of both parties taken into account when all or nearly all violence is ended by the Palestinian terrorists. Criticism of Israel for its continued expansion into what most of the world considers Palestinian territory is not justified while any significant violence continues against Israel. If some part of the Palestinians continue violence against Israel then Israel expansion to the biblical borders is justified. However the indigenous population shouldn't be forcefully ejected. But creating isolated reservations occupied and controlled by the Israeli military might be an unfortunate necessity.

ZN:
Israel is the land of the Jews because Jews have been in this land before the time of David and have been in this land ever since. The indigenous population that existed before the large migrations of Jews to Israel after WWII don't really have much right to their lands because they weren't part of a formal country, and the immigrating population did make an attempt to buy some of the land from them and besides they're Arabs and they can just live in one of the Arab countries. So even though the current violence isn't a justification for the continued expansion of Israel, the fact that some Palestinians have been attacking Israel means that for security reasons the expanison of Israel eventually into what will be all of greater Israel is proper and justified. This is the unfortuanate pain that Palestinians must endure because of their stupicty in continuing to be led by the likes of Arafat.

Without commenting on the accuracy of these characterizations, they describe possible answers to the question of where Israel's borders should be, not where they are.

The borders of Israel are where they are. The fact that they have changed as a result of various wars only says that they changed. There was once a border between East and West Germany. Even though this border has entirely disappeared and did not exist before WWII, it is possible to say where it was when it existed.

 

[The Fool]

Without commenting on the accuracy of these characterizations, they describe possible answers to the question of where Israel's borders should be, not where they are.

The borders of Israel are where they are. The fact that they have changed as a result of various wars only says that they changed. There was once a border between East and West Germany. Even though this border has entirely disappeared and did not exist before WWII, it is possible to say where it was when it existed.

So where are the borders?

"where they are" is not very usefull..... The loch Ness monster and Atlantis are also where they are......

 

[Mycroft]

So where are the borders?

"where they are" is not very usefull..... The loch Ness monster and Atlantis are also where they are......

I'd say this qualifies as a meltdown.

 

[zenith-nadir]

Without commenting on the accuracy of these characterizations,

The accuracy of davefoc characterization is 0%.




I think this thread is a lesson in Muslim Self-Criticism. There is no such thing. Instead of admitting that xenophobia, theocracies, dictatorships, wars and terrorism may have contributed to the suffering in the Middle East the 'party line' is - as always - Israel's exsistence and the greater Israel conspiracy theory is the cause.

 

[a_unique_person]

True. The jews were there a thousand years before Islam was even born. Archaeological records confirm this and to deny it is disingenuous.

Your simple minded ignorance never ceases to amaze me. Since when was this a matter of when Islam was established there?

 

[The Fool]

I'd say this qualifies as a meltdown.

Its definitely a more accurate answer than anything you have attempted.

If you can't answer are you prepared to at least offer a reason why you can't. Tell us why you cannot say where Israels borders are? Maybe you could answer "where they are" and feel you have achieved something?

 

[The Fool]

Its definitely a more accurate answer than anything you have attempted.

If you can't answer are you prepared to at least offer a reason why you can't. Tell us why you cannot say where Israels borders are? Maybe you could answer "where they are" and feel you have achieved something?

Its certainly circular enough to suit your avoidance style. Do you think your avoidance of this simple question enhances your credability?

 

[zenith-nadir]

Your simple minded ignorance never ceases to amaze me. Since when was this a matter of when Islam was established there?

Since you guys started the argument of who land is it anyways. Before the Palestinians, before the Arab invasion of 631 A.D., before the Romans, before Islam AND Christianity there were jews living in Jerusalem.

 

[a_unique_person]

Since you guys started the argument of who land is it anyways. Before the Palestinians, before the Arab invasion of 631 A.D., before the Romans, before Islam AND Christianity there were jews living in Jerusalem.

So, you are saying that if people are living on the land, they have an entitlement to it?

 

[zenith-nadir]

So, you are saying that if people are living on the land, they have an entitlement to it?

What I am saying is that if the Arab league accepted U.N. Resolution 181 passed in 1948 and accepted jews as neighbors in the Middle East instead of generally being racist xenophobes against anything jewish that Arabs living beside jews would not be an issue.

Which is part of the Arab introspection problem. As soon as one begins to look at the mistakes the Arabs have made, wars, terrorism, xenophobia, dictatorships, theocracies, islamofascism, suddenly the topic changes and becomes "well Israel", "well the expansion of Israel", "well the biblical borders of Israel", etc....

 

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by davefoc
Mycroft:
The borders should be negotiated with the needs of both parties taken into account when all or nearly all violence is ended by the Palestinian terrorists.

I'd phrase it differently, but that's pretty close.

Originally posted by davefoc
Criticism of Israel for its continued expansion into what most of the world considers Palestinian territory is not justified while any significant violence continues against Israel.

Never said that.

Originally posted by davefoc
If some part of the Palestinians continue violence against Israel then Israel expansion to the biblical borders is justified.

Never said that either.

Originally posted by davefoc
However the indigenous population shouldn't be forcefully ejected.

I don't think this has ever come up, but in general I'm against ethnic cleansing of all kinds.

Originally posted by davefoc
But creating isolated reservations occupied and controlled by the Israeli military might be an unfortunate necessity.

Never said that either.

Dave, it seems to me that your understanding of my positions (and probably the entire conflict) is hampered by your choosing to frame the issues in (only) the vernacular of the anti-Israeli camp. You can't understand the pro-Israeli position by only reading what their opponents say about them. To make an analogy, you can't really understand the platform of the Democratic party by only reading what the Republicans say about them, and vise-versa. If you're sincere in wanting to understand the issues, you need to broaden your scope.

 

[Mycroft]

So, you are saying that if people are living on the land, they have an entitlement to it?

I lived in my mom and dad's house for the first eighteen years of my life, but living there didn't give me any entitlement to the land. After I moved out, my mom sold it.

I rented an apartment for seven years. My renters agreement gave me certain rights with limitations, but those rights ended when I stopped renting the property.

Now I own a house on a small piece of land in a suburb. I enjoy more rights with that land, but there are still certain restrictions imposed by the city, county and state where I live. In addition, there is a homeowners association, but their rules are pretty mild and not well enforced.

Within walking distance of my home, there are several parks that I and my family may use. Two of them are playgrounds and are exclusive to the community where I live, though realistically if someone from outside out community wanted to use them, nobody would say anything. The larger one is owned by the county, and is open to anyone, though the parks department can reserve parts of it for the exclusive use of one group for a time if they schedule it in advance.

Living in a democracy, I have the ability to influence decisions made about lands and properties run by the various government agencies that have jurisdiction. I can attend meetings, make my opinions known, work to influence the political process or even seek to hold office myself.

Concepts such as land rights and ownership can take very many forms.

 

[zenith-nadir]

Muslim extremists killed six security officers in an attack in western Algeria - Sept. 29, 2004... But what about Israel's biblical borders?

Fighting erupted in Sudan's South Darfur state, forcing another 5,000 people from their homes - Sept. 29, 2004...But what about the illegal Israeli settlements?

Two rival Palestinian militants were killed Wednesday in a clash in a Palestinian refugee camp in south Lebanon - Sept. 29, 2004....But what about these quotes that confirm the goals of the zionist movement.


Muslim Self-Criticism...

 

[a_unique_person]

What I am saying is that if the Arab league accepted U.N. Resolution 181 passed in 1948 and accepted jews as neighbors in the Middle East instead of generally being racist xenophobes against anything jewish that Arabs living beside jews would not be an issue.

Which is part of the Arab introspection problem. As soon as one begins to look at the mistakes the Arabs have made, wars, terrorism, xenophobia, dictatorships, theocracies, islamofascism, suddenly the topic changes and becomes "well Israel", "well the expansion of Israel", "well the biblical borders of Israel", etc....

But a neighbour is someone who moves into a vacant house. This was not the case.

 

[a_unique_person]

I lived in my mom and dad's house for the first eighteen years of my life, but living there didn't give me any entitlement to the land. After I moved out, my mom sold it.

I rented an apartment for seven years. My renters agreement gave me certain rights with limitations, but those rights ended when I stopped renting the property.

Now I own a house on a small piece of land in a suburb. I enjoy more rights with that land, but there are still certain restrictions imposed by the city, county and state where I live. In addition, there is a homeowners association, but their rules are pretty mild and not well enforced.

Within walking distance of my home, there are several parks that I and my family may use. Two of them are playgrounds and are exclusive to the community where I live, though realistically if someone from outside out community wanted to use them, nobody would say anything. The larger one is owned by the county, and is open to anyone, though the parks department can reserve parts of it for the exclusive use of one group for a time if they schedule it in advance.

Living in a democracy, I have the ability to influence decisions made about lands and properties run by the various government agencies that have jurisdiction. I can attend meetings, make my opinions known, work to influence the political process or even seek to hold office myself.

Concepts such as land rights and ownership can take very many forms.

Quick backpeddle noted.

 

[davefoc]

ZN & Mycroft,
Thank you for your polite response to my post which may have been less than polite.

davefoc characterization of Mycroft view:

Criticism of Israel for its continued expansion into what most of the world considers Palestinian territory is not justified while any significant violence continues against Israel.

Mycroft Response:

Never said that.

Yes, I know you never said it. It was an inference I made about your views based on the fact that I had never seen you criticize the expansionist policies of Israel. You seem to be a strong defender of Israel and its current poliies and a reasonable person. Based on that and other statements you have made the inference I drew was that you thought Israel should just keep on expanding until the violence subsides or until the biblical borders of Israel are reached.

davefoc characterization of Mycroft view:

But creating isolated reservations occupied and controlled by the Israeli military might be an unfortunate necessity.

Mycroft Response:

Never said that either

Yes, I know you never said that either. But it is happening now and if I understand you it should continue to happen until nearly all violence by any Palestinians is stopped. I understand that you think that Palestinians should cease violence against Israel and then they should trust Israel to bargain in good faith about the nature of their country. But assuming that doesn't happen and the violence against Israel continues then what end do you see for the situation other than this?