Muslims Self-Criticism

[Tony]

But a neighbour is someone who moves into a vacant house. This was not the case.

Yes it was, there was no state in the area now known as Isreal before Isreal was established. The area was controlled and owned by UK.

 

[davefoc]

What exactly is the logic of this "...there was no state in the area now known as Isreal before Isreal was established. The area was controlled and owned by UK."

Does this mean it doesn't matter that there was an indigenous population in Israel before hundreds of thousands of Jews emmigrated there? So, if the locals haven't organized into something that Europeans see as a state then Europeans are free to just move in and displace indigenous populations without any moral issues?

 

[Tony]

Does this mean it doesn't matter that there was an indigenous population in Israel before hundreds of thousands of Jews emmigrated there? So, if the locals haven't organized into something that Europeans see as a state then Europeans are free to just move in and displace indigenous populations without any moral issues?

First, do you have any evidence that the indigenous was, in fact, displaced?

But to answer your question, that's how it's been throughout history, and that's how the muslims came to control the area (do you have any "moral" objections to that?). Inferior and backwards societies have always been pushed aside by the more advanced societies.

 

[Mycroft]

Quick backpeddle noted.

My understanding is that to "backpeddle" means to back off from a position. What I did was to cite examples from my own life of various forms of property rights. I did this because you only seem able to uderstand concepts based on race.

I'd hate to be an ethnic minority moving into your neighborhood.

 

[davefoc]

First, I don't think there is any dispute that part of the indigenous population of Palestine was dsiplaced before during and after the creation of the state of Israel. The dispute with regard to this is as to what caused the displaced people to leave. It is often claimed that a lot of land was purchased from the indigenous population for the incoming Jews. This is unquestionably true. It is also claimed that masses of Palestinians left their homes voluntarily because some unspecified Arab leader told them to. This is almost unquestionably false.

As to the rest of your post you and I are in absolute and total agreement. For most of the history of the world people have banded together into groups that have attacked, massacred, robbed and displaced native populations.

It is impossible to undo the vast majority of this and as I sit here typing this post in my Southern California house I'm none too anxious for the process to start with me. That does not mean that the behavior was moral or correct by today's standards.

If the decision were up to me today, I would have opposed the foundation of the state of Israel. This would not be without some sadness in that I have enjoyed the industry of the Israelis in the founding of their country and I am happy for their success in that. But whatever I think about the morality of the founding of the state of Israel, that bell has been rung. And I would not favor trying to unring that bell, anymore than I would propose that all people of European ancestry leave Australia.

What I oppose, is the continued expansion into what is generally viewed as non-Israeli land. Israeli public opinion polls seem a little unclear on this but at least a significant percentage of the Israeli population opposes that expansion also. The fact is that this expansion relies on massive subsidies from the central Israel government and I suspect that without American subsidies the Israelis would abandon this expansion strategy and begin to move in the direction of a long term sustainable relationship with their Palestinian neighbors.

 

[Tony]

It is often claimed that a lot of land was purchased from the indigenous population for the incoming Jews. This is unquestionably true. It is also claimed that masses of Palestinians left their homes voluntarily because some unspecified Arab leader told them to. This is almost unquestionably false.

Can you please present some evidence for these positions (particularly the unquestionably true and the unquestionably false parts)?

If the decision were up to me today, I would have opposed the foundation of the state of Israel.

I honestly don't know what my position would have been had I lived in those days.

 

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by davefoc
Yes, I know you never said it. It was an inference I made about your views based on the fact that I had never seen you criticize the expansionist policies of Israel. You seem to be a strong defender of Israel and its current poliies and a reasonable person. Based on that and other statements you have made the inference I drew was that you thought Israel should just keep on expanding until the violence subsides or until the biblical borders of Israel are reached.

Dave, to my recollection Israel hasn't captured any new lands in a war for more than thirty years. The majority of what they have captured has been returned. Based on that, I'm puzzled that you can make blanket statements that presume “expansionist policies.”

“Biblical boundaries” are a red herring. You can't get two people to agree on what “biblical boundaries” are, and except for occasional use in emotive rhetoric, they really have no place in modern political considerations. If you use the term to characterize my position, you're guilty of projection.

 

[The Fool]

Dave, to my recollection Israel hasn't captured any new lands in a war for more than thirty years. The majority of what they have captured has been returned. Based on that, I'm puzzled that you can make blanket statements that presume “expansionist policies.”

“Biblical boundaries” are a red herring. You can't get two people to agree on what “biblical boundaries” are, and except for occasional use in emotive rhetoric, they really have no place in modern political considerations. If you use the term to characterize my position, you're guilty of projection.

Does the daily expansion of Settlements, outposts,checkpoints and Israeli only roads and the walling off of land and water resources in the west bank not count?

 

[zenith-nadir]

It is also claimed that masses of Palestinians left their homes voluntarily because some unspecified Arab leader told them to. This is almost unquestionably false.

You claim that 0% of the Palestinians left voluntarily....so if it is "false" how did the jews force 800,000 palestinians to leave their homes? It's really a question of numbers and logistics. Considering the jews were outnumbered by Palestinians and the Palestinians were backed by the forces of Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Egypt and Transjordan how did 35-40,000 jews *force* 800,000 palestinians to flee from nearly every village in 1948?

The fact is that this expansion relies on massive subsidies from the central Israel government and I suspect that without American subsidies the Israelis would abandon this expansion strategy and begin to move in the direction of a long term sustainable relationship with their Palestinian neighbors.

Israel-PLO Recognition, Israel-Palestinian Declaration of Principles, Agreement on the Gaza Strip and the Jericho Area, Agreement on the Preparatory Transfer of Powers and Responsibilities, Interim Agreement between Israel and the Palestinians, The Wye River Plantation Agreement, The Sharm el Sheikh Agreement, Palestinian-Israeli Security Implementation Work Plan (Tenet Plan), the Performance-Based Road Map to a Permanent Two-State Solution to the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict.....

All attempts by Israel to "move in the direction of a long term sustainable relationship with their Palestinian neighbors". Problem is Dave is that Arafat is a corrupt old terrorist-dictator who refuses to reform even if it means a real state for the Palestinians.

 

[The Fool]

You claim that 0% of the Palestinians left voluntarily

where? you are being naughty again.

 

[a_unique_person]

Yes it was, there was no state in the area now known as Isreal before Isreal was established. The area was controlled and owned by UK.

You are saying it was just there for the taking. There have been many times when a colonialist power has left a region of the world. The assumption, by use of common sense, was that the people who lived there would form a country. This is exactly what happened in those cases. The idea that the country was in fact open for anyone to just come along and claim the country for their own, and not a place for the residents to form a part of that country that was to be formed, is against all notions of natural justice.

The whole concept of Israel was a country for Jews, Arabs don't figure in there. If the natural majority of Arabs was allowed to stay there, the idea of Israel would not succeed. Therefore, massive ethnic cleansing was carried out as soon as Israel was declared. The demographics are still very relevant today. The birthrate of Arabs is higher than that of Jews.

 

[a_unique_person]

Dave, to my recollection Israel hasn't captured any new lands in a war for more than thirty years. The majority of what they have captured has been returned. Based on that, I'm puzzled that you can make blanket statements that presume “expansionist policies.”

“Biblical boundaries” are a red herring. You can't get two people to agree on what “biblical boundaries” are, and except for occasional use in emotive rhetoric, they really have no place in modern political considerations. If you use the term to characterize my position, you're guilty of projection.

Not at all a red herring, and exactly what is causing the split in Likud at the moment. For a majority of Likud, the idea that there will be a retreat from Gaza is heresy.

 

[Tony]

You are saying it was just there for the taking.

It was. It was really no different than the american and austrailian frontiers.

The idea that the country was in fact open for anyone to just come along and claim the country for their own, and not a place for the residents to form a part of that country that was to be formed, is against all notions of natural justice.

WTF is "natural justice"?

And you are misunderstanding (what else is new). No the area was not open for anyone to just come along. The British owned it, and it was their's to do with as they pleased.

The whole concept of Israel was a country for Jews, Arabs don't figure in there.

So? And that's not the case today. Most of the middle east is (still) regarded as an area for muslims, NO ONE besides them figures in there. I notice you don't have a problem with that.

The whole concept of Israel was a country for Jews, Arabs don't figure in there. If the natural majority of Arabs was allowed to stay there, the idea of Israel would not succeed. Therefore, massive ethnic cleansing was carried out as soon as Israel was declared. The demographics are still very relevant today. The birthrate of Arabs is higher than that of Jews.

And that's all your bullsh!t comes down to; muslim supremacism and Jewish extermination. It’s nice to see the Nazi and Arab dream of a jewless world lives on in your deranged cranium.

 

[zenith-nadir]

where?

The British Mandate of Palestine.

Maybe you'd like a crack at it - How did 35-40,000 jews, (Haganah forces), *force* 800,000 palestinians to flee from nearly every village in 1948 eventhough the Palestinians were backed by the armies of Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Egypt and Transjordan ?

 

[davefoc]

This article in Wikipedia provides a description of the nature of and numbers assoicated with the Palestinian exodus in the time period of the founding of Israel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Exodus

In particular look towards the middle of the article for these topics:

First stage of the flight, December 1947 - March 1948
Second stage of the flight, April 1948 - June 1948
Third stage of the flight, July 1948
Fourth stage of the flight, October 1948 - November 1948

The aritlce also spends a little time debunking the myth that the exodus was instigated by Arab leaders. This myth has been debunked several times by a variety of people but that doesn't stop it from being repeated as fact even today.

The bottom line here is that Palestinians left their homeland for a variety of reasons:

voluntarily because of fear of impending war.
voluntarily because of threats of massacre or terrorism
involuntarily by forced ejection
voluntarily, sort of, when the peasant lands were purchased and the zionist kicked the peasants off land they had farmed for generations.

The simple fact is that Israel at the time of its creation was lead by people that wanted to found a Jewish state. This is the stated purpose of the zionist leaders of the time and it is documented over and over by their statements and actions.

There is no question that the zionist leaders had concerns about the indigenous population but there is also no question that concerns for the indigenous population were secondary to their main goal which was to found a Jewish state. Today, there is a never ending stream of obfuscation and misdirection to turn the nature of the founding of Israel into something that fits nicely with modern notions about morality and equal rights for people regardless of race or religion. The fact that actual history doesn't jibe with this seems to offer little impediment to the effort.

 

[zenith-nadir]

The aritlce also spends a little time debunking the myth that the exodus was instigated by Arab leaders. This myth has been debunked several times by a variety of people but that doesn't stop it from being repeated as fact even today.

Can you provide alternate documentation regarding the 'debunking'. Wikipedia only quotes Benny Morris, , and Khalid al-`Azm. Yet Wikipedia admits;

The degree to which the flight of the refugees was voluntary or involuntary is hotly debated

. If you have alternative information that confirms the 'debunking' of the call of Arab leaders for Palestinians to flee their homes I would be happy to review it.

 

[E.J.Armstrong]

originally posted by Mycroft
E.J., there is no argument. You aksed some questions, I told you to go look them up and figure them out for yourself. Again, I'm sorry if being asked to do simple thinking on your own upsets you. I did offer to help, but apparently you declined.

Can I take it then that you have no intention of ever clarifying who is within your unidentified tiny group and that you are unconcerned with the accuracy of your claims.

What apparently frightens you so much about clarifying your own claims?

 

[The Fool]

The British Mandate of Palestine.

Maybe you'd like a crack at it - How did 35-40,000 jews, (Haganah forces), *force* 800,000 palestinians to flee from nearly every village in 1948 eventhough the Palestinians were backed by the armies of Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Egypt and Transjordan ?

Lol...ZN....when I asked "where" I was asking where Dave had stated the opinion you fabricated for him. not where the ethnic cleansing was performed.

As for your questuion, you are an Idiot. I hope one day you are forced to live through being driven from your home by troops. No doubt some clown in the future would try and tell you it was your own choice.

ONLY 35 to 40 thousand? I could drive out twice as many civilians with half as many men...you have no clue.

Your pathetic revisionism puts you right up there with holocaust deniers.

 

[Mycroft]

This article in Wikipedia provides a description of the nature of and numbers assoicated with the Palestinian exodus in the time period of the founding of Israel.

Wikipedia is a great idea and a great resource, but unfortunately on controversial subjects some people take it as an opportunity to push a political agenda rather than to inform. The article you cite is disputed both for failing to provide a neutral point of view and for factual accuracy. This page contains discussions from contributors on this issue, and makes for interesting reading.

 

[Mycroft]

It was. It was really no different than the american and austrailian frontiers.

I disagree. In Australia and America, Europeans were dealing with indigenous people who simply didn't have the same concepts of land ownership or government. The Europeans felt free to take whatever land they wanted, and imported their systems of law from the nations they came from. By contrast, the immigrating Jews had to purchase their land, and work within the legal systems already in place.