Molten Steel

[Jono]

I am NOT assuming the AREA was 2400°C

Well I saw that you made the mistake of using Fahrenheit and Celsius interchangebly, so it is F then. Still, what is your basis that the molten material is steel and that it is 2400 degrees? Don't say colour, because as has been clairified molten aluminum gets mighty yellow when you reach temps like 1800F. Here's molten aluminum being poured, where you can see that it's not silvery but rather quickly solidifies into a silvery colour (as seen by the solidified parts below the fall):

Another picture:

Here's an additional picture comparison between aluminum around melting temps and at 1000 degrees Celsius:

Furthermore, I thought you'd be needing an emission-spectra on Aluminum

Here's a metalworker scraping out aluminum scrap from an furnace:

Another photo:

(notice the aluminum residue parts, bouncing down on the floor!)

As a recap, the previously given photos:

And no, I do not want to hear your repeated rejection that had there been more light on the aluminum it would'n't have had these colours, that's a general myth because while light increases the reflection and makes aluminum glow less dark, it doesn't magically transform the obvious red and yellow glow into pure silver glow.

If you are going by colour, the expected abundance of aluminum alloys and also potential mix with the window-glass and other materials are more than a hundred times probable than a thermite-induced river of flowing metal that somehow didn't come from the trusses (since the floors would have caved in immediately had such a temp and feat been done) nor from the interior columns (since the columns would have collapsed immediately had such a temp and feat been done), which in any case would've brought a lot of other metals into the mix making identification of steel from the colour alone still very much impossible.

Another anonymous expert. I'm so impressed.

Since I didn't expect you to take my word for it, I referred you to some of the world's leading experts on aluminum forging and by default its colour spectrum and impurity-factors, such as the IAI (International Aluminum Institute) and the LA Aluminum Casting Company. Here's another reference for you that fits the qualification of giving you a valid and thorough answer; Cambridge Metalsmiths.

It has been discussed that these two pictures may not be aluminum, but no one is absolutely sure.

Many are absolutely sure, I am since I wrote Chastain myself. Those pictures (which depict molten iron, not aluminum) were taken from another one of his books and pasted to a website that posted an excerpt from Chastain talking about aluminum.
I emailed Steve Chastain concerning this issue, this was his reply:

You may send them to this address. [steve@stephenchastain.com]

I answered that question years ago. A third party posted those photos and I had nothing to do with them being labled as aluminum. I have no control over who, what and were my photos are posted and how they are labled. Errors in lableing should be addressed to the site owner.

Steve

So, there you go. I do not see your point of argument on Chastain though.

What is the scientific source for the assumption that organic material can mix with molten aluminum?

101 physics. If you can melt it, then it can be blended with other molten stuff, wether it is metals or other forms of material. Liquids do blend, Christopher.

Adding a variety of so called flux-components in alluminum foundries sometimes include organic material, as explained in the paper; "FLUX FOR MOLTEN ALUMINUM AND ALUMINUM ALLOY".

This is just so you'll get the basic fact that organic material can mix with molten aluminum for a variety of reasons, and if you wish to know more about flux on aluminum or the effects of impurity-vs-colour then I recommend going to the horse's mouth yourself or at least inquiry with it (e.g from the aluminum foundries).

There were no other metals in concentration in the debris that could account for the molten metal under all three buildings.

Yes, there were, there were plenty of copper/zinc/tin mixes and not to mention a variety of aluminum alloys from the building, its content, the cars in the garages etc.

 

[T.A.M.]

but wait you must be a shill, because those pictures show ORANGE molten aluminum, and bill and others have told us that that is not possible, and no amount of contamination or temperature can change that...

TAM

 

[ktesibios]

Bill doesn't know anything about color perception.

Or how film and video reproduce color. If he did he would understand why attempting to do spectrophotometry using a video source is 110% pointless.

 

[T.A.M.]

maybe if he used a pink sweater for White Balance.

TAM

 

[Jono]

but wait you must be a shill, because those pictures show ORANGE molten aluminum, and bill and others have told us that that is not possible, and no amount of contamination or temperature can change that...

TAM

Indeed, as I said before it's somewhat surreal to be accused of error and being a "shill" for talking about this stuff which happend to be what I do for a living.
It reminds me of a debate I had with the kids at a day-care center where I once worked. They didn't like caviar since it stemmed from the stomach of a fish, to which I asked them how they could drink milk as it stems from the stomache of a cow. They reacted not only with great bewilderment but with anger as well, pointing to the tetra-pak milk-carton and denying my rendering, even after I had told them I had milked cows myself.
The differences between that and arguing with truthers on these matters are semantics.

 

[bill smith]

but wait you must be a shill, because those pictures show ORANGE molten aluminum, and bill and others have told us that that is not possible, and no amount of contamination or temperature can change that...

TAM

I suppose I should go and look at the video of the orange metal pouring out the window. I should look around and see if there is anything silver in the image. If there IS,and if it's known to be silver then I suppose that must mean that silver shows as silver and by extension that orange shows as orange.

 

[bill smith]

''Let us never tolerate outrageous conspiracy theories concerning the attacks of September the 11th; malicious lies that attempt to shift the blame away from the terrorists, themselves, away from the guilty. (George W. Bush)''

 

[George 152]

I suppose I should go and look at the video of the orange metal pouring out the window. I should look around and see if there is anything silver in the image. If there IS,and if it's known to be silver then I suppose that must mean that silver shows as silver and by extension that orange shows as orange.

It must have then, by dint of colour, been a flood of orange juice.

 

[T.A.M.]

I suppose I should go and look at the video of the orange metal pouring out the window. I should look around and see if there is anything silver in the image. If there IS,and if it's known to be silver then I suppose that must mean that silver shows as silver and by extension that orange shows as orange.

Well that would be a good start, in terms of approaching the video. Kind of hard to do though, as light from that bright day would reflect with a silver shine regardless of the hue of the reflector. That said, yes, that would be a good START. A good second approach would be to look at the images above, all with orange molten material, ALL ALUMINUM, and realize that the argument, is therefore moot.

TAM

 

[T.A.M.]

''Let us never tolerate outrageous conspiracy theories concerning the attacks of September the 11th; malicious lies that attempt to shift the blame away from the terrorists, themselves, away from the guilty. (George W. Bush)''

wrong subforum. Take it to politics.

I personally think Bush is a moron, and Cheney ran the policy. It think Cheney was a neocon *******. This, however, is in no way related to what happened on 9/11.

TAM

 

[Jono]

''Let us never tolerate outrageous conspiracy theories concerning the attacks of September the 11th; malicious lies that attempt to shift the blame away from the terrorists, themselves, away from the guilty. (George W. Bush)''

Mmm indeed... I hardly think truthers or debunkers can, in any sense or setting, get much valid appeal of authority from using this man's words.

• "I'm telling you there's an enemy that would like to attack America, Americans, again. There just is. That's the reality of the world. And I wish him all the very best."—George W Bush, Washington, D.C., Jan. 12, 2009
• "This thaw—took a while to thaw, it's going to take a while to unthaw."— George W. Bush, Alexandria, La., Oct. 20, 2008
• "I didn't grow up in the ocean—as a matter of fact—near the ocean—I grew up in the desert. Therefore, it was a pleasant contrast to see the ocean. And I particularly like it when I'm fishing."—George W. Bush, Washington, D.C., Sept. 26, 2008
• "And they have no disregard for human life."— George W. Bush, Describing the brutality of Afghan fighters, Washington, D.C., July 15, 2008
• "You know, I'm the President during this period of time, but I think when the history of this period is written, people will realize a lot of the decisions that were made on Wall Street took place over a decade or so, before I arrived in President, during I arrived in President." -- George W. Bush, ABC News interview, Dec. 1, 2008
• "Amigo! Amigo!" -- George W. Bush, calling out to Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi in Spanish at the G-8 Summit, Rusutsu, Japan, July 10, 2008
• "And so the fact that they purchased the machine meant somebody had to make the machine. And when somebody makes a machine, it means there's jobs at the machine-making place." --George W. Bush, Mesa, Arizona, May 27, 2008
• "So long as I'm the president, my measure of success is victory -- and success." -- George W. Bush, on Iraq, Washington, D.C., April 17, 2008
• "All I can tell you is when the governor calls, I answer his phone." -- George W. Bush, San Diego, Calif., Oct. 25, 2007
• "I heard somebody say, 'Where's (Nelson) Mandela?' Well, Mandela's dead. Because Saddam killed all the Mandelas." -- George W. Bush, on the former South African president, who is still very much alive, Washington, D.C., Sept. 20, 2007
• "The same folks that are bombing innocent people in Iraq were the ones who attacked us in America on September the 11th." -- George W. Bush, Washington, D.C., July 12, 2007
• "More than two decades later, it is hard to imagine the Revolutionary War coming out any other way." -- George W. Bush, Martinsburg, W. Va., July 4, 2007

How this... person ever managed to get any employment beyond flipping burgers at McDonalds is, in my view, rather distburbing and unsettling. And this person is supposed to have been "in on it" if not one of the notable co-conspirators? You'd have more luck with your average local kindergarten.

 

[JimBenArm]

So, it's settled. It was Orange Sherbert.

Glad we've got that out of the way.

 

[Homeland Insurgency]

BLAH BALAH BLAH BALAH

JREF Code

It's not that anyone didn't hear explosions it's that if they did they are crazy or mistaken and if they try to stick by their story debunkers need to start a campaign against them. Please use the Gravy template against Rodriguez for a reference.

It's not that there are no first responders who have different accounts of 9/11 then what we are being told it's just that they are crazy or mistaken and if they ever attempt to stick by their story then all debunkers know the drill. Attack Attack Attack

It's not that no one witnessed molten steel it's just that it's all "anecdotal" (Gravy buzz word) and should be ignored because all debunkers know that all the evidence was destroyed so the twoofers have no argument.

BLAH BALAH BLAH BALAH

 

[Baylor]

So you got your degree from Clown U.

 

[Furcifer]

Oh I think the melting of the columns was no problem at all.....but that 's a story for another day.

You have more stories? Fun.

 

[Homeland Insurgency]

So you got your degree from Clown U.

Hey debunk what's going on? Was that a reply to me?

 

[Christopher7]

Thank you for your straightforward, informative post.

Well I saw that you made the mistake of using Fahrenheit and Celsius interchangebly, so it is F then. Still, what is your basis that the molten material is steel and that it is 2400 degrees? Don't say colour, because as has been clairified molten aluminum gets mighty yellow when you reach temps like 1800F. Here's molten aluminum being poured, where you can see that it's not silvery but rather quickly solidifies into a silvery colour (as seen by the solidified parts below the fall):
http://pro.corbis.com/images/KF012001.jpg?size=67&uid={4466189D-617A-49BD-ACD9-A9A9F7D8C76B}

Another picture:
http://eecue.com/img/images_pic-medium-21718-pouring_the_molten_aluminum.jpg

Here's an additional picture comparison between aluminum around melting temps and at 1000 degrees Celsius:
http://nomoregames.net/911/helping_jones/600_v_1000.jpg

Furthermore, I thought you'd be needing an emission-spectra on Aluminum

Here's a metalworker scraping out aluminum scrap from an furnace:
http://www.talkingproud.us/ImagesPhotoGallery/WorkHard/AluminumWorker.jpg

Another photo:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3020/3006593413_5e7cd94707_m.jpg (notice the aluminum residue parts, bouncing down on the floor!)

As a recap, the previously given photos:
http://www.energysolutionscenter.or...num/casting/images/alum_casting_equipment.jpghttp://www.scientificameriken.com/yr1/burn4.jpg

And no, I do not want to hear your repeated rejection that had there been more light on the aluminum it would'n't have had these colours, that's a general myth because while light increases the reflection and makes aluminum glow less dark, it doesn't magically transform the obvious red and yellow glow into pure silver glow.

I respectfully disagree. All the photos where the aluminum glows red are in dark rooms.
It has been demonstrated that aluminum is silver in daylight at 660C when other metals glow red at that temperature.
To demonstrate the color of aluminum at 1000C in direct sunlight, you need to produce a photo taken in direct full sunlight like the actual conditions on 9/11.

If you are going by colour, the expected abundance of aluminum alloys and also potential mix with the window-glass and other materials

The only actual tests I have seen clearly show that organic materials do not mix with molten aluminum because they burn up [carbonize] immediately.

Before claiming that aluminum can mix with anything you must site a verifiable case where this has been done.

Adding a variety of so called flux-components in alluminum foundries sometimes include organic material, as explained in the paper; "FLUX FOR MOLTEN ALUMINUM AND ALUMINUM ALLOY".

Page does not load.

This is just so you'll get the basic fact that organic material can mix with molten aluminum for a variety of reasons, and if you wish to know more about flux on aluminum or the effects of impurity-vs-colour then I recommend going to the horse's mouth yourself or at least inquiry with it (e.g from the aluminum foundries).

Instead of telling me to go to Hellen Hunt for it, Quote the information and give the reference URL.

Yes, there were, there were plenty of copper/zinc/tin mixes and not to mention a variety of aluminum alloys from the building, its content, the cars in the garages etc.

None of these metals were in concintrations. They were mixed in with thousands of tons of debris.

 

[buka001]

Christopher, someone tried to blow up the rebar and mesh on my site, its all gone red. Since your posts reflect the position that redish steel implies it was melted and only thermite can melt steel, someone on my site must have tried to blow it all up with thermite. Or is there another explanation to why steel could be redish?

 

[Senenmut]

someone asked about this FLIR pic carol took. the jet fuel burned off in 10 mins and this pic was taken about 15 mins after the jet hit the south tower. the wtc is just spewing out black smoke at this point in time. there werent large fires coming out of the windows, just black smoke.

 

[BigAl]

Thank you for your straightforward, informative post.

I respectfully disagree. All the photos where the aluminum glows red are in dark rooms.
It has been demonstrated that aluminum is silver in daylight at 660C when other metals glow red at that temperature.
To demonstrate the color of aluminum at 1000C in direct sunlight, you need to produce a photo taken in direct full sunlight like the actual conditions on 9/11.

All of the demonstrations you cite show essentially pure aluminum.

Who says that what came out of the tower was pure aluminum? It wasn't. It was a ground-up 757 with all the metals and organics and inorganics that were on board. Add to that all the material in the office, much of it aluminum alloy, none of it pure aluminum. The colors and melting points of impure aluminum differ from pure aluminum.

There is lots of logic and evidence that makes the case that this is aluminum (and maybe lead.)

There is no case for it being steel unless you postulate some magic sauce for which there is no evidence the public can consider. There is no known magic sauce works in a way that fits the eyewitness accounts of 9/11.

In any case, what does this have to do with how and why three towers collapsed?