Molten Steel

[Christopher7]

No, I was simply trying to reconcile that hypothesis with the fact that the rest of the building, the trusses, the columns, the exterior fasads and columns are not dripping along with it, which they would have been had the temp been at 2400 degrees celsius.

You are still ignoring the fact that metals take a while to heat up.

However, if your argument is that the molten material is steel from the interior columns, making its way and running up, around and below all the rubble material on its way to the 82nd floor-corner

It is not.
I'm just noting what can be seen in the photo.

Pure liquid aluminum appears silvery at its melting-temp, but aluminum alloys mixed with other molten material, such as plastics and glass and other impurities can easily produce a very bright orange and yellow glow to it.

Source?

Try visit a foundry there-of. There is a colour spectrum to aluminum material as well, it isn't just silvery.

The photo you posted is in a dark room. In daylight molten aluminum is silver. Note the vessel is red hot.

 

[BigAl]

Source?

Pure liquid aluminum would be expected to appear silvery. However, the molten metal was very likely mixed with large amounts of hot, partially burned, solid organic materials (e.g., furniture, carpets, partitions and computers) which can display an orange glow, much like logs burning in a fireplace. The apparent color also would have been affected by slag formation on the surface.

NIST concluded that the source of the molten material was aluminum alloys from the aircraft, since these are known to melt between 475 degrees Celsius and 640 degrees Celsius (depending on the particular alloy), well below the expected temperatures (about 1,000 degrees Celsius) in the vicinity of the fires. Aluminum is not expected to ignite at normal fire temperatures and there is no visual indication that the material flowing from the tower was burning.

http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/factsheets/faqs_8_2006.htm​

 

[bje]

bje,

Kindly stop asking the same question and making the same accusation.
I will not respond to it again.

Have a nice day.

You haven't responded to my question yet. But you've had plenty of opportunity to back up your claims but you refuse.

 

[Christopher7]

No, I do not deny that most people in general, including firefighters, would have an easier time simply blurting out "steel" as opposed to make a proper and necessary examination required to determine its componental nature.

Please, they did not do any testing because it is not necessary. Steel is the only metal found in abundance in the pile. All the aluminum cladding had been blown up to 600 feet in all directions. Mark Loizeaux and the contractors he had worked with knew it was molten steel by the color, as did many others. Firefighters saw molten metal dripping from beams being pulled from the pile.

Deniers ask for what does not exist in a vain attempt to deny the numerous statements confirming molten steel.

we do know that the effects of chemical effects (such as sulfur) in eutetic combination with heat and iron can give steel melting processes at lower temperatures.

Yes but only in thermate.
You cannot site another source for this sulfur rich eutectic because there is none.

 

[Christopher7]

Pure liquid aluminum would be expected to appear silvery. However, the molten metal was very likely mixed with large amounts of hot, partially burned, solid organic materials (e.g., furniture, carpets, partitions and computers) which can display an orange glow, much like logs burning in a fireplace. The apparent color also would have been affected by slag formation on the surface.

http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/factsheets/faqs_8_2006.htm​

And what is NIST using as a source for this unprecedented and unproven assumption?

 

[Grizzly Bear]

Please, they did not do any testing because it is not necessary. Steel is the only metal found in abundance in the pile. All the aluminum cladding had been blown up to 600 feet in all directions. Mark Loizeaux and the contractors he had worked with knew it was molten steel by the color, as did many others. Firefighters saw molten metal dripping from beams being pulled from the pile.

Wow.... just wow... You're the first I've ever heard this from...

 

[BigAl]

And what is NIST using as a source for this unprecedented and unproven assumption?

Take it up with Mr. Chastain as another person that makes actual sense and doens't just whine "must" and "can't".

Summary: The flow is not steel because the structural steel would fail
well below the metling temperature. The flow is likely to be a
mixture of aluminum, aluminum oxides, molten glass and coals of
whatever trash the aluminum flowed over as it reached the open
window. Such a flow would appear orange and cool to a dark color.
​

Metal Talk
Post and share ideas with fellow foundry members

Several times over the last year I have been asked to comment on a
photo of one of the Trade Center Towers. The photo shows a molten
flow from one of the windows. The flow falls down along the
building. It appears orange and turns to a gray color as it cools.

The questions usually want me to address "Is this photo a fake?" and
"Is the flow steel or aluminum?" "Is this situation possible?"

First, I will address the temperature range, then the color of the
flow.

I am working in imperial units and temperature in degrees F

Metals lose about 50% of their strength at 60% of their melting
temperature. This is common knowledge and may be found in any
undergraduate text regarding "Fracture and Deformation of
Materials."

If the approximate melting temperture of steel is 2750 F the the
material would be plastic at 1650 F. Even assuming a safety factor
of 3, you would expect the bolts or other structural members to
deform and fail near this temperature, especially with the
additional weight if a jet air liner. I would assume that the live
load calulations did not include the typical office equipment and an
airliner plus a factor of 3. THEREFORE I assume that the flow is not
steel and that the temperature of the steel members at the time of
the photo is less than 1650 F.

Assuming that the flow would be molten aluminum from the airliner
and the color of molten aluminum is silver then why is the flow
orange?

The color of pure molten aluminum is silver, It has an emissivity of
.12. Steel has an emissivity of .4 and appears orange in the
temperature range of molten aluminum.

The emissitivty of aluminum oxide is .44 and also appears orange in
the melting temperature range of molten aluminum.

The emissivity of plate glass is .937 It begins to soften at 1000 F
and flows around 1350 F. Silica has an emissivity of .8



Copper oxide also has an emissivity of .8. however I will assume
that their effect is negligible.

Aluminum oxidizes readily in the foundry under ideal melting
conditions. Large surface area relaltive to thickness, turbulence,
the presence of water or oil greatly increases the oxidation of
aluminum. A jet airliner is made of thin aluminum sheet and most
probably suffered conderable oxidation especially in contact with an
open flame and being in contact with jet fuel. If you dont believe
this, try melting a few soda cans over coals or open flame. If you
are lucky you will end up with only 50% aluminum oxide. However, the
cans may completely burn up.

The specific gravity of aluminum is 2.7. The specific gravity of
aluminum oxide (Al2O3-3H2O) is 2.42 the specific gravity of Si =
2.40 and Glass is 2.65 these are all very similay and likey to be
entrained in a molten aluminum flow. Don't believe it? lightly stir
the dross into molten aluminum. The surface tensionis so high is is
almost impossible to separate them.





THEREFORE assuming that the flow consist of molten aluminum and
considerable oxides, and assuming that the windows in the trade
center were plate glass and also in a plastic state and that they
were also likely entrained in the molten aluminum. I would expect
the flow to appear to be orange in color. Especially since both the
entrained materials have emissivities equal to or more than twice
that of iron.

Also since dross cools to a gray color and glass with impurities
also turns dark. I would expect that the flow would darken upon
cooling.

I would also suggest that not only is the photo possible, but
entirely likey.

Summary: The flow is not steel because the structural steel would fail
well below the metling temperature. The flow is likely to be a
mixture of aluminum, aluminum oxides, molten glass and coals of
whatever trash the aluminum flowed over as it reached the open
window. Such a flow would appear orange and cool to a dark color.

Stephen D. Chastain
http://stephenchastain.com/bb/viewtopic.php?t=85

 

[Grizzly Bear]

Yes but only in thermate.
You cannot site another source for this sulfur rich eutectic because there is none.

Source

Landfilled gypsum wallboard can produce harmful gasses and toxic leachates.
In an anaerobic environment typical of normal landfills, waste gypsum wallboard (consisting primarily of calcium sulfate) can easily break down into sulfate ions which in tum can be chemically transformed into hydrogen sulfide gas (H2S) and sulfide leachates. At several landfills in the Northwest (primarily British Columbia), harmful levels of gas have been recorded and quantities of leachates detected in that are toxic to fish. The gas smells like rotten eggs and is harmful to humans in concentrations above 1,000
parts per million.

Source

Hydrogen sulfide gas is a product of anaerobic decomposition of gypsum
(commonly used in wall board). To generate hydrogen sulfide gas, the bacteria breaking down the gypsum must have an anaerobic environment, moisture, and a carbon source (the paper and glue in wallboard is sufficient).


Approximately four tons of gypsum will produce one ton of hydrogen
sulfide. Hydrogen sulfide is generated faster than methane, especially if wallboard is pulverized (more surface area available to the bacteria).

source

Hazardous Combustion Products
• None
• Above 1450oC, material can decompose and release sulfur dioxide (SO2) and oxides of carbon.

Especially take interest in the first two which reflected more closely the nature of the rubble pile

 

[Jono]

You are still ignoring the fact that metals take a while to heat up.

Not to any notable length if contained in a 2,400 C-temped location.

Why do believe it is steel, of all the other more probable materials? Why steel? If you do believe with ability to back your reason for your belief thereof, what produced this molten steel, how? Was it the trusses that melted and flowed away, somehow without the floor collapsings? If the heat in that area was, as you estimate it to for some reason, 2,400 degrees Celsius then the aluminum material, glass and all the other components would be dripping and flowing along with it in a mixed fashion, which further negates your ability to determine it to be steel. You can't have the cake and eat it too mr Brown.

Source?

Well I for one, I'm an industrial smith/metalworker. You could inquire for more specific confirmation with metallurgic experts like Steve Chastain or with the IAI (International Aluminum Institute) or the LA Aluminum Casting Company or the Energy Solutions Center etc. Heck, visit an aluminum foundry, talk to an engineer thereof and have it verified.

The photo you posted is in a dark room. In daylight molten aluminum is silver. Note the vessel is red hot.

Mmm indeed, so if you had opened the windows and let more sunlight in the yellow and orange material would suddenly look grey.
It's always nice to be told how this stuff work, considering I work with metal and smithing of all sorts for a living, by someone who demonstrably has no experience or knowledge to speak of on the matter.

Aluminum reflects light very well yes but its silvery appearence is moreso the specific colour around its melting temperature. Are you really implying that aluminum is the metal without a colour-spectrum?

Please, they did not do any testing because it is not necessary. Steel is the only metal found in abundance in the pile.

Structural steel was moreso common yes but since very few pieces were reported to have been glowing at large and few places on/in the piles concerning any molten metal thereof, so the amounts of other metal components are expected influxes and would be scattered around the place and inside the piles as well in plentiful proportions, allthough the total weight thereof would not be comparable but that is not the debate, your argument says little at all.

All the aluminum cladding had been blown up to 600 feet in all directions. Mark Loizeaux and the contractors he had worked with knew it was molten steel by the color, as did many others. Firefighters saw molten metal dripping from beams being pulled from the pile.

They couldn't have known that it was steel by the colour since you can't determine the metal or its componental nature by its colour alone.
Furthermore, I haven't negated that molten metal was spotted, but rather that it was steel, or did you yourself accidentitly mix up "metal" with "steel" in your remark just now on what the firefighters saw?

As a note, from Mackey's paper;

Furthermore, for molten steel to drip off of a steel column, when both have been in place for some time, the column and dripping steel would have to be in thermal equilibrium. Since steel has a significant heat of fusion, we must assume the liquid and a portion of the solid steel were at the same temperature. If this were true, portions of the steel column would have softened to virtually zero strength or even melted around the edges, and it would be impossible to pull the beam free without grossly distorting it or actually leaving the half-melted portions behind. It is obvious to the author that the molten metal was not steel at all, but rather some other material with a lower melting point. Once again, this account is not consistent with the claim of molten steel.

Yes but only in thermate.
You cannot site another source for this sulfur rich eutectic because there is none.

Well first of all, thermate will most likely generate more than 1000 C to say the least and the eutectic mixture would not be found in traces, it would not survice thermate reaction.
Secondly, thermate would be expected to be about 2% sulfur, so I wouldn't regard it for any reason as one of the, by far, possible let alone probable sources of sulfur in the piles. There are other candidates that we do know were present that would yield a lot of So2 (ie that which is released from sulfur and is what attacks the steel) such as the gypsum wallboard, diesel fuel oil, the automobile fires, its presence in the furniture, plastic components etc. Basically, there will be a lot more of this from the expected material than your preferred thermate-variable would give.

 

[Christopher7]

Take it up with Mr. Chastain.

OK, BTW, who is Mr. Chastain?

Summary: The flow is not steel because the structural steel would fail well below the metling temperature.[he is ignoring the possibility of thermite] The flow is likely to be a mixture of aluminum, aluminum oxides, molten glass and coals of whatever trash the aluminum flowed over as it reached the open window. Such a flow would appear orange and cool to a dark color.[in a foundary, impurities separate from the aluminum ore as the aluminum liquefies, forming a slag. There is no case or evidence of organic impurities entering molten aluminum]


THEREFORE I assume that the flow is not steel



The specific gravity of aluminum is 2.7. The specific gravity of aluminum oxide (Al2O3-3H2O) is 2.42 the specific gravity of Si = 2.40 and Glass is 2.65 these are all very similay [sic] and likey to be entrained in a molten aluminum flow.
[On what does he base this assumption]

THEREFORE assuming that the flow consist of molten aluminum and considerable oxides, and assuming that the windows in the trade center were plate glass and also in a plastic state and that they were also likely entrained in the molten aluminum. I would expect
the flow to appear to be orange in color.
[There is no precedent or scientific basis for his assumptions or expectations]
​

Link does not work:
http://stephenchastain.com/bb/viewtopic.php?t=85

 

[Christopher7]

Not to any notable length if contained in a 2,400 C-temped location.

True

Why do believe it is steel, of all the other more probable materials?

Like?

Why steel? If you do believe with ability to back your reason for your belief thereof, what produced this molten steel, how?

The temperature of the falling metal was far above what office fires can attain much less maintain long enough to heat any metal to around 2400 [FONT=&quot]°[/FONT]C.

The only known explanation for molten metal at that temperature is thermite.

 

[Senenmut]

Take it up with Mr. Chastain as another person that makes actual sense and doens't just whine "must" and "can't".

Summary: The flow is not steel because the structural steel would fail
well below the metling temperature. The flow is likely to be a
mixture of aluminum, aluminum oxides, molten glass and coals of
whatever trash the aluminum flowed over as it reached the open
window. Such a flow would appear orange and cool to a dark color.
​

this guy is assuming the temps to be pretty high in those towers before the metal starts to flow.

from nist-

"Only three locations had evidence that the steel reached temperatures above 250 °C."
http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/NCSTAR1-3ExecutiveSummary.pdf1

then we have this FLIR image that a lady named carol shot 15 mins after the plane crashed. its on the east side of the south tower and the temps show about 200 - 220 F. the jet fuel burned off in the first 10 min.

 

[Grizzly Bear]

this guy is assuming the temps to be pretty high in those towers before the metal starts to flow.

from nist-

"Only three locations had evidence that the steel reached temperatures above 250 °C."
http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/NCSTAR1-3ExecutiveSummary.pdf1

Three locations for corresponding columns that were recovered, and their locations were known relative to the impact region need I remind you... You did read the report right? I don't think the context should be difficult to understand when they state that the samples they used are not representative of condition in the building as a whole.

 

[Senenmut]

and its strange the nist only had those samples that showed the steel only reached 250C while dr asl saw more.
dr asl-
"To support his theory, he cites the way the steel has been bent at several connection points that once joined the floors to the vertical columns. If the internal supporting columns had collapsed upon impact, he says, the connection points would show cracks, because the damage would have been done while the steel was cold. Instead, he describes the connections as being smoothly warped: "If you remember the Salvador Dalí paintings with the clocks that are kind of melted -- it's kind of like that. That could only happen if you get steel yellow hot or white hot -- perhaps around 2,000 degrees."

-notice hes not saying this happened in the pile due to a eutectic attack. it happened before the tower fell. and notice he says yellow hot to white hot. that yellow to white hot sounds an awful lot like that stuff flowing out of the tower.
http://chronicle.com/free/v48/i15/15a02701.htm

His research has turned up other intriguing and potentially useful discoveries. He found, for example, that the collapse began when the floors gave way. In areas where the fire was hottest, the floor beams were bent downward, indicating that the floors fell before the columns. Without the floors, the columns could not support the overlying weight by themselves, and the buildings came down. Establishing this sequence is crucial, because researchers can then focus on developing techniques to shore up the weakness.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/03/07/terror/main503218.shtml

 

[BigAl]

then we have this FLIR image that a lady named carol shot 15 mins after the plane crashed. its on the east side of the south tower and the temps show about 200 - 220 F. the jet fuel burned off in the first 10 min.

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/2854449b48d97b7729.gif[/qimg]

Where did that FLIR data come from? I find a max of 220F strange when the contents of the offices were blazing away as shown in video tapes. Open flame has to record hotter than 220F.

 

[Senenmut]

and im sure everyone here has read this damn engineer state:

"He says his trained eye can figure out some details, like temperatures during the fire, on the spot.
BOLHASSAN ASTANEH: Here, it most likely reached about 1,000 to 1,500 degrees. And that is enough to collapse them, so they collapsed. So the word "melting" should not be used for girders, because there was no melting of girders. I saw melting of girders in World Trade Center."
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/science/jan-june07/overpass_05-10.html

 

[R.Mackey]

Where did that FLIR data come from? I find a max of 220F strange when the contents of the offices were blazing away as shown in video tapes. Open flame has to record hotter than 220F.

This is yet another example of what happens when you use an uncalibrated thermal imager and just copy data from it. See the discussion here, a few pages back.

In all likelihood, what's actually happening in this case is the imager is looking at the heated air escaping the structure, not the actual burning materials. The air has a substantially lower effective emissivity than normal materials, therefore the thermal imager (which has no idea what material it is pointed at) interprets this relatively low amount of incident energy as a lower temperature.

The value is totally unreliable. NIST also mentions this picture in NCSTAR1-5A, I think, and remarks that the temperature is uncalibrated. The value of the image is to estimate the area that's burning. Temperature measurement is impossible without a much more sophisticated instrument.

I imagine we could count the number of folks in the Truth Movement who know how to use this kind of data on one hand -- and out of them, those who would properly represent this data rather than trying to sensationalize it, would fit into a shoebox. Despite the fact that, obviously, a fire temperature of 200^oC makes no sense at all, and the error is clear by inspection.

ETA: ... And now the charlatan is quote-mining Dr. Astaneh-Asl of Cal, for the millionth time. Further proof that these people will never, ever get it, no matter how simple we make it for them.

 

[Grizzly Bear]

and its strange the nist only had those samples that showed the steel only reached 250C while dr asl saw more.
dr asl-
"To support his theory, he cites the way the steel has been bent at several connection points that once joined the floors to the vertical columns. If the internal supporting columns had collapsed upon impact, he says, the connection points would show cracks, because the damage would have been done while the steel was cold. Instead, he describes the connections as being smoothly warped: "If you remember the Salvador Dalí paintings with the clocks that are kind of melted -- it's kind of like that. That could only happen if you get steel yellow hot or white hot -- perhaps around 2,000 degrees."

And steel fails well before it needs to melt... It's not surprising he gives the Dali analogy to some of the connection failures, just look at what fire did to connections in WTC 5 (middle pic). Those same failure modes caused a massive interior collapse in that building. "Yellow Hot" and "White Hot" in his comments strike me as a hyperbole though... since the colors he asserts in that statement don't match the temperatures he asserts it would take, I should should probably kick him in teh nutz for the booboo. However that's a trivial mistake on his part; the general conclusion he surmises is that fire, not thermite caused these failures. Of course if you doubt my interpretation I'm no substitute for the man himself, you'd be best off asking him personally why he doesn't agree with the CD theory if you feel his initial statement here was evidence enough coming from him.

-notice hes not saying this happened in the pile due to a eutectic attack. it happened before the tower fell. and notice he says yellow hot to white hot. that yellow to white hot sounds an awful lot like that stuff flowing out of the tower.
http://chronicle.com/free/v48/i15/15a02701.htm

The context in which he states this however as I alluded to above can be confusing. The temperatures required for "white Hot" or "Yellow Hot" are a good deal over 2,000o F, but his statement that it takes temperatures around 2000 degrees seems to indicate in this context he's alluding to the fires. Again, if you doubt my interpretation of this being a mistake on his part, figure out a way to get clarification from him. The context on which he's speaking though has nothing to do with thermite or other CD theories. As for before the collapse, well heat isn't steel's best friend... it will fail if exposed to sufficient temperatures without ever having to melt.... period....kind of like what happened when the towers burned and collapsed after being hit by an airliner...

His research has turned up other intriguing and potentially useful discoveries. He found, for example, that the collapse began when the floors gave way. In areas where the fire was hottest, the floor beams were bent downward, indicating that the floors fell before the columns. Without the floors, the columns could not support the overlying weight by themselves, and the buildings came down. Establishing this sequence is crucial, because researchers can then focus on developing techniques to shore up the weakness.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/03/07/terror/main503218.shtml

This seems like a valid statement, but I don't see anything supporting the contention you imply. Although judging by the year he made this statement according to the article,it sounds like he's referring to the pancake collapse initiation. As far as I am aware NIST had yet to complete their investigation and this had been ruled out as a factor in the initiation later on. I could be wrong... regardless of which... what exactly is this supposed to imply... I don't see anything damning in this statement...

 

[Christopher7]

If the heat in that area was, as you estimate it to for some reason, 2,400 degrees Celsius then the aluminum material, glass and all the other components would be dripping and flowing along with it in a mixed fashion

I am NOT assuming the AREA was 2400°C

Well I for one, I'm an industrial smith/metalworker. You could inquire for more specific confirmation with metallurgic experts like Steve Chastain or with the IAI (International Aluminum Institute) or the LA Aluminum Casting Company or the Energy Solutions Center etc. Heck, visit an aluminum foundry, talk to an engineer thereof and have it verified.

Another anonymous expert. I'm so impressed.

Mr. Chastain is mentioned in the Judy Woods piece. "Aluminum glows"
http://drjudywood.com/articles/aluminum/Aluminum_Glows.html

[SIZE=+1]from the book: [/SIZE] [SIZE=+1]Build an Oil Fired Tilting Furnace[/SIZE] by: Steve Chastain

Figure #10a,b These images are from a book showing how to melt aluminum and separate it from the slag. It has been discussed that these two pictures may not be aluminum, but no one is absolutely sure.

What is the scientific source for the assumption that organic material can mix with molten aluminum?

They couldn't have known that it was steel by the colour since you can't determine the metal or its componental nature by its colour alone.

There were no other metals in concentration in the debris that could account for the molten metal under all three buildings.
Mark Loizeaux knew this, so did the conteactors he had worked with, This was an easy call. It is only your denial that is making it difficult for you.

 

[Christopher7]

ETA: ... And now the charlatan is quote-mining Dr. Astaneh-Asl of Cal, for the millionth time. Further proof that these people will never, ever get it, no matter how simple we make it for them.

Pray tell, what do you find wrong with this statement?

Abolhassan Astaneh: Professor of civil engineering at the University of California at Berkeley and was one of the leading structural engineers who studied the collapse of the World Trade Center on 9/11.
"I saw melting of girders in World Trade Center."
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/science/jan-june07/overpass_05-10.html