[Moderated]The Holocaust never happened!

[Damien Evans]

It's a sad fact that until quite late on Hitler had the support of many influential British people, infamously the owner of the Daily Mail supported Hitler until Britain declared war with Germany.

In 1933 he published this editorial in his newspaper

And then, on another level entirely, was Lord Haw-Haw, he of the famous "Rats of Tobruk" line, among other even worse things

 

[SDC]

It's not even a same comparison. Iraq did nothing. You lose.

Darn those Poles and their weapons of mass destruction which got in the way of the glorious German advance!?

You know, K, you veer between "the Slavs had it worse than the Jews," to something like "the Poles taunted the poor Germans until the Wehrmacht just couldn't stand it any more." Please choose a position.

By the way, what is a "same comparison"? Someone on the list recently grumbled about the phrase, "same difference." Is that, uhm, the same? (And for you conspiracy theorists out there, please take note: the Polish parliament is the "Sejm," which is pronounced the same as same. Clearly they were taunting the innocent Wehrmacht by confusing them.)

K, have you seen the movie, "The Producers"? The original, I mean. Best of its kind. "Springtime for Hitler and Germany/ Winter for Poland and France..."

 

[drkitten]

Are you people seriously that afraid to be labeled a neo-Nazi that you would go this far to appease the Holocaust survivors? You well know what a "conservative estimate" is supposed to mean. There is always a "conservative" estimate and a higher estimate.

No, there isn't. If you're estimating the expenses of a project, for example, a "conservative" estimate would be the higher estimate (since you're trying to cover the worst-case scenario). If you're estimating how long until a project of yours will be completed, a "conservative" estimate will be the longer period of time, because that's the scenario you've got to be prepared to cover.

I don't think any scholar would point out something silly like that in my use of the word "conservative estimate".

I am a scholar -- I have pointed to something silly like that.

And you still haven't explained how 500,000+ people can be delivered by train to Belzec and vanish if it wasn't a "death factory."

 

[Matthew Best]

Welcome to the forum, Pushkin! Good first post.

 

[SDC]

Because they don't talk about exterminations. Only a few it seems talk specifically about gas chambers and ovens.

Don't tell me about burning pits either. Dead or alive. It is doubtful whether that is even possible as it's being hotly debated on the skeptics forum.

You have some testimonies that are faked. Some forced. Some biased like this French resistance member championed by Holocaust promoters. If you like to continue tossing out this general claim about testimonies then let's start breaking it down.

Where is the evidence? Are there any examinations being done today on the concentration camps?

You are headed for a trifecta of error here. I wish I were a betting man.

Well, with regard to survivors of operation Reinhard, which has been discussed, there were precious few from all 3 camps. I think the standard estimate is 100 out of 1.5-2 mln Jews deported to them.

Other camps had more survivors because they served multiple purposes, such as Auschwitz. And yes, there are plenty of references to the gas chambers, and even -- heavens! -- from non-Jews who were in the camps, but not subject to direct extermination. I always recall the collection of stories by a Polish writer, Tadeusz Borowski, who was imprisoned in Auschwitz and committed suicide a few years later; "This Way for the Gas, Ladies and Gentlemen," is how the title was translated.

Which "skeptics forum" is this being hotly debated on, thereby -- in your mind -- disproving it? From what I can see, it's really just you. Magz and Atrain have left, perhaps suspecting, from your references to your own ancestry, that you are not a true Aryan. (Hard luck!) Say, how do you feel about the Japanese diplomat in, I think, Wilno/ Vilnius who helped Jews escape the Germans by providing them with exit visas? Bet you don't like him.

There is a ton of testimony, documentary evidence, and anything else. You just don't care for it. The Holocaust is often referred to as one of the most studied, and best documented, events in history. And it's the case.

How do you feel about the Nazi camp archives and such now being opened to researchers? Visit Bad Arolsen; it's in a nice area, easily accessible. This article is just one recent, personalized story, of course, but heck, you can do your own research. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/16/AR2007091600616.html

 

[drkitten]

Oh now they died out of stupidity? That's a pretty bold statement with nothing to back it up although a few historians seem to disagree with you. You care to tell some Native Americans that? Maybe not the 100 million, but 40 million at least.

Most of the Amerindian deaths were indeed due to European stupidity and to bad luck; the deaths were due to diseases against which the natives had no natural immunity (primarily smallpox and measles). Ten years after Cortez' arrival, the Mexican native population had been cut by an estimated 75%, due almost entirely to smallpox. The site of the future Massachusetts colony was nearly depopulated (99% loss or thereabouts) two years before the Mayflower even landed.

There is one documented case where the Indians were deliberately infected with smallpox (blankets from a smallpox hospital were delivered to a local tribe at the orders of Lord Amherst in 1763), but for the most part, the deaths were not only not deliberate, but they weren't even preventable. (Smallpox or measles was often a death sentence even among Europeans at the time; there was no effective treatment.) Most of the natives who died never even saw a European.

The comparison to the deliberately created Nazi factories of death with their industrialized gas chambers doesn't hold up well. The Mayflower immigrants, for example, didn't slaughter very many Indians. Even if they had wanted to, there were almost none left in the area.

Bunch of white folks from Europe who massacred anyone not white as them. I fail to see how that is any different from Nazi racial ideology.

See above. It's difficult to deliberately murder people who are already dead.

 

[Pak43]

What is being specifically disputed is whether they had "industrialized" killing factories or that 6 million Jews really died. Were they really extermination camps or was it just labor camps?

I'm afraid even Mr Irving was forced to admit that the extermination of the Jews was conducted in a systematic manner

A June 1942 SS report shows that they killed 97,000 Jews since December 1941 with 3 (yes 3) trucks

"Judge Gray asked Irving "Is it very limited and experimental?" , after some prevarication Irving answers...

"Not on this scale, this is systematic..."

I'm not sure what else you'd call a toll of 97,000 bodies processed in 6 months with just 3 trucks but "industrialised" is as good a fit as any I would suggest...

 

[SDC]

Those were the early days of gassing, though by the end of 1941 probably a couple of million had been killed in other ways. (Ask Nick Terry for details.) They were experimenting with trucks and carbon monoxide. Not efficient or effective enough.

 

[Belz...]

Because they don't talk about exterminations. Only a few it seems talk specifically about gas chambers and ovens.

The "final solution" seems pretty final, to me.

Don't tell me about burning pits either. Dead or alive. It is doubtful whether that is even possible as it's being hotly debated on the skeptics deniers forum.

There. Fixed that for you.

You have some testimonies that are faked. Some forced. Some biased like this French resistance member championed by Holocaust promoters.

Good, good. Since the Jews were targetted by the Germans, you can claim they are biased, as well, and ignore any and all testimony. Let me ask you this: how do you know that it isn't the testimonies YOU trust that are faked, forced or biased ?

If you like to continue tossing out this general claim about testimonies then let's start breaking it down.

Where is the evidence? Are there any examinations being done today on the concentration camps?

Err... it was done in the 40s. You know, things proven in the past don't need to be proven again just because someone refuses to believe it.

Which brings up another question: WHY do you think that the "official" story is false, to start with ?

 

[Pak43]

Where is the evidence? Are there any examinations being done today on the concentration camps?

Robert Jan van Pelt, The Case for Auschwitz (Bloomington, University of Indiana Press, 2002)

 

[Pak43]

Those were the early days of gassing, though by the end of 1941 probably a couple of million had been killed in other ways. (Ask Nick Terry for details.) They were experimenting with trucks and carbon monoxide. Not efficient or effective enough.

Actually my point was that even David Irving was forced to admit this was a "systematic" extermination, and therefore anything on a larger scale could not be considered as anything other than industrialised genocide even by a noted holocaust denier...

 

[Pushkin]

The BBC have just run a piece on the evening news about Irving. He turned up at the Oxford University Union (a kind of debating chamber) to make his case in a debate on the rights of free speech. On his side was Nick Griffin the BNP (British national Party - extreme anti immigration and according to some racist) politician.

The debating chamber has been surrounded by protesting students apalled these two should be given a platform for their views, they broke in and have stalled the whole evening. In a debate that was supposed to start at 2030 nothing has happened for the last two hours.

I'm in favour of letting them speak and hearing the nonsense that they will try to come out with.

 

[funk de fino]

There are more there than have ever been truthers at GZ. Shows you what happens when people really care about something.

Irving is pretty much a sideshow to Griffin as the BNP is a big thing at the moment. They are Nazis in suits who try to put a nice face on their racism.

 

[Grayce]

I'm in favour of letting them speak and hearing the nonsense that they will try to come out with.

Absolutely. By not letting them through in debates and always denying them participation in the media they'll just score "martyr points".
Holocaust-deniers will always be totally obliterated in an open debate concerning the holocaust. In fact, as I see it, that's one of the most effective ways to kill conspiracies and myths in general - invite them and smash them with facts in front of everyone.
Conclusion: insane theories survive much more easier when not put to the test.

In Sweden, our former prime minister Göran Persson (some of you guys might know of him) decided to give out some public information literature on the holocaust. So a booklet packed with pictures and facts was released in 1998. Roughly translated "Of this we most tell... (the future generations)". It was free and every Swedish citizen could get a copy if he wanted to. The project was ofcourse financed with tax money.
I think that was a great initiative from Persson, and I'm proud that he did that. For the sake of securing knowledge about the WW2 and the massmurders.

 

[dudalb]

In Between his posts in this thread,and his thread "proving" that Pearl Harbor was a LIHOP Inside Job, I think we can safely assume that Kasegi is a apologists and defender of the Far Right in Politics.

 

[Damien Evans]

How clever Elizabeth! It's amazing that this real fleet traveling from across the planet was never detected by the US radar system when even Australia warned the US about the Japanese fleet heading to Pearl Harbor? I guess the US never did anything to provoke Japan into attacking?

Wrong. We never did any such thing.

 

[Paulhoff]

How clever Elizabeth! It's amazing that this real fleet traveling from across the planet was never detected by the US radar system when even Australia warned the US about the Japanese fleet heading to Pearl Harbor? I guess the US never did anything to provoke Japan into attacking?

Which they did. Which also doesn't mean the Nazis gassed a ton of Jews in gas chambers alive.

I mentioned that to illustrate the total lack of empathy that exists in the world in discussing history. Clearly your statement seems to be exemplary of that. You're saying they deserved to suffer?

It must be a great feeling to know when the US does anything it's because they are "liberating" countries. I guess building military bases in foreign countries is for their "protection".

How little you seem to know, and from that, how much you can lie and hate, it is so nice not to be you.

Paul



The KKK wants you.

 

[achtung circus]

Examinations?

Where is the evidence? Are there any examinations being done today on the concentration camps?

Well there is the Ground Penetrating Radar study done at Treblinka performed by Krege under the aegis of the Adelaide Institute. He alleges it shows no soil disturbance. Interesting place, Adelaide.

When is he going to publish it, anyway? It's only been 10 years.

 

[Gravy]

kageki, specifically what evidence would convince you that the Nazis systematically killed millions of Jews (not to mention all the other civilians they killed for various reasons)?

 

[Slayhamlet]

How little you seem to know, and from that, how much you can lie and hate, it is so nice not to be you.

Paul



The KKK wants you.

I doubt the KKK wants him, at least as a member, since he's not of "Aryan" extraction. They'll love his ideas though, and if he were to ever author a crappy denial book they'd write a nice blurb for the jacket.