[Moderated] So What Would You Think If This Were True?

[Lyte Trip]

Okay, so Lyte believes AA77 did not hit the Pentagon.

What happened to the passengers, crew, and plane itself from AA77, Lyte? Where are they?

I can prove the plane flew on the north side of the citgo.

You will have to concede I was right.

This will supercede all of your other questions.

I have no intentions of answering all of anybody's questions here nor do I claim to be able to.

I will present information when I am ready.

 

[Dog Town]

Some one post a pic of a kitten, please.

 

[Pardalis]

So why did you come here today Lyte?

Got time to waste?

 

[JFM]

I think that post from LC was sarcasm, it should have been!

Well I was fooled. However; it will haunt him every time he posts idiocy here.

 

[Pardalis]

Some one post a pic of a kitten, please.

I only got budgie pics...

 

[LashL]

Hate to break this to you, but if it's taking you this long to get some witness testimony into a form which will be convincing to the public at large, you're trying too hard.

If it's watertight it will stand on it's own. If you have to spend so much of your time on it, it's going to be torn to pieces.

Agreed, to a point. I think that he and his sidekick are here trying to figure out how and by what means their alleged evidence - if and when they ever finish tweaking it, and if and when they ever present it - will be attacked so that they can try to waterproof it in advance.

I think it's because they have no appreciation of the fact that real, factual evidence has to stand or fall on its own, and no appreciation of the fact that any and all criticism of the alleged evidence will rightly be addressed in due course. In the real world, that's how it works. In the CT world, well, that's another story, apparently.

Bottom line, if they have evidence to present, it's just silly to traipse around the internet saying what amounts to "look at me, look at me ~ woo hoo ~ I'm going to be part of making history, I tells ya'" while refusing to present the alleged evidence that they claim to have.

 

[Roger_Harris]

Has anybody else here looked into the issue of the plane's heading from the flight data recorder? (I assume Lyte has not, since he ducked my question.)

 

[LashL]

Lyte Trip: you keep saying "the plane" - can we at least establish which plane you're talking about among the two or three planes alleged and/or known to have been in the vicinity at the time?

Are you talking about Flight 77 or another plane?

(never mind for the moment that you still haven't provided a scintilla of evidence to back up the alleged earth shattering evidence that you claim to have, it would be a good start to know what "the plane" means in your world)

 

[Pardalis]

Besides, even if there is testimony that contradicts slightly the other witnesses, they still saw a plane crashing into the Pentagon, and that can only be flight 77.

These are witnesses 5 years-after the fact, and these people are most likely not engeneers. Quite a few real engeneers studied the massive amount of evidence that lead to their conclusion, so I can't imagine how these "new witnesses" can ever change the basic fact that flight 77 was highjacked and struck the Pentagon.

 

[apathoid]

Has anybody else here looked into the issue of the plane's heading from the flight data recorder? (I assume Lyte has not, since he ducked my question.)

The heading was 70.0 degrees in the last data frame. The "Pilots" for "Truth" contend that the NTSB animation doesnt line up with the official flight path. However, the animation was overlayed to Google Earth which lays out the imagery with respect to True North, which is offset from Magnetic North by 11 degrees in the DC area.....

 

[Piggy]

What is the "Pulls up here" in the pic supposed to mean ?

It's supposed to obscure the portions of the picture which show that the damage pattern is consistent with the official conclusions and not the lone Citgo witness.

 

[Roger_Harris]

The heading was 70.0 degrees in the last data frame. The "Pilots" for "Truth" contend that the NTSB animation doesnt line up with the official flight path. However, the animation was overlayed to Google Earth which lays out the imagery with respect to True North, which is offset from Magnetic North by 11 degrees in the DC area.....

Yeah, I got 10.5 degrees from an online calculator. So, is the FDR heading magnetic or true? (Either way, that doesn't put it north of the Citgo, so it looks like the alignment in the animation is just wrong, and by more than the difference between magnetic and true -- and it appears to me that Lyte's "adamant" witnesses disagree with the FDR.)

 

[Gravy]

I can prove the plane flew on the north side of the citgo.

You will have to concede I was right.

Lyte, since you say you're searching for the truth about the light poles, I assume you made the effort to speak with the people whose published accounts indicate that they witnessed what knocked them down.

Did you make that effort, Lyte? If so, please point out which of these people you contacted:

Steve Riskus: I could see the "American Airlines" logo...It knocked over a few light poles in its way.

Mark Bright: at the height of the street lights. It knocked a couple down.

Mike Walter: it clipped one of these light poles ... and slammed right into the Pentagon right there. It was an American Airlines jet.

Rodney Washington: knocking over light poles

Kirk Milburn: I heard a plane. I saw it. I saw debris flying. I guess it was hitting light poles

Afework Hagos: It hit some lampposts on the way in.

Kat Gaines: she saw a low-flying jetliner strike the top of nearby telephone poles

D.S. Khavkin: First, the plane knocked down a number of street lamp poles

Fourth time, Lyte: does Father McGraw believe that the plane that flew directly over him and resulted in the light pole hitting the cab

1) hit the Pentagon
2) did not hit the Pentagon

We await your answers, Seeker of Truth.

 

[uk_dave]

You have to understand that the woowoo's mix with other woowoos and they all stroke each others theories and tell each other what a great job they're doing and how this is the biggest thing since jfk etc etc.

It's not a real world. It's a conspiracy world where people believe the most absurd things because they find that others believe it too.

Then it gets to the point where they just can't understand why 'regular' people can't see what they see. Then they get paranoid.

Real journalism involves fact checking undertaken by others who have nothing invested in the original story. Editors will also provide an impartial or even skeptical eye over a story to make sure that it will stand up to scrutiny.

But if the person investigating an event is fact checked by someone else who also believes the woowoo, and there is never an impartial, skeptical voice to be heard during this 'compiling' process, then the emotional and intellectual investment made by the investigator will blind them to the obvious flaws in their story.

Then they will look silly when the cold light of reality is shone on their work and it falls to pieces.

It's like someone claiming to have a picture of a ghost, and someone else agreeing with them, and they get all excited and tell themselves that this IS a picture of a ghost, but they cannot understand why everyone else who sees it can't see a ghost, just a shadow or a reflection or any other retional explanation.

It's also why something like loose change can be released and heralded by those who see what they want to see in it, and yet it falls to pieces as the deliberate lies or delusions are held up to close scrutiny.

Methinks lyte and skeptic are deluding themselves.

 

[apathoid]

Yeah, I got 10.5 degrees from an online calculator. So, is the FDR heading magnetic or true? (Either way, that doesn't put it north of the Citgo, so the alignment in the animation is wrong -- and so are Lyte's "adamant" witnesses.)

Magnetic. This is from the header in the CSV file.

Eastern,VERTICAL,LONGITUDINAL,LATERAL,PRESSURE,MAG,COMPUTED,ENG N1,ENG N1,ROLL,PITCH

...and the last frame of data:

09:37:44,0.663,0.132,0.031,173,70.0,463.0,99.5,98.8,6.3,-4.9

I wonder if PfT will issue an official retraction about the animation flightpath. I'm guessing no.

 

[W6102LA]

I can prove the plane flew on the north side of the citgo.

You will have to concede I was right.

This will supercede all of your other questions.

I have no intentions of answering all of anybody's questions here nor do I claim to be able to.

I will present information when I am ready.

QUOTE
Did any of the witnesses see the plane hit the Pentagon ?

[MERC]
What if they think they did? Does them saying "I saw the plane hit the building?" mean they actually saw the plane hit the building? No. Even if they did, is it possible that it didn't?



QUOTE
Did any of the witnesses see the plane do a fly-over instead of hitting the Pentagon ?

[MERC]
Is that what it's going to take by your standards?

http://z10.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=604&st=30

So does them saying " I saw the plane on the North-side of the CitGo" mean they actually saw the plane on the North side ? No. Even if they did is it possible that it didn't ?

 

[tsig]

So is that a clue, or are you just happy to see us?

It's a raging clue.

 

[LashL]

I can prove the plane flew on the north side of the citgo.

You will have to concede I was right.

This will supercede all of your other questions.

I have no intentions of answering all of anybody's questions here nor do I claim to be able to.

I will present information when I am ready.

Translation:

"I refuse to tell you which plane I'm talking about because doing so might screw up one or more of the conspiracy theories that I adhere to, and I can't answer your questions because I have no idea how to address legitimate inquiries. I'm a tinhatter and they didn't teach critical thinking or logic at Tinhat U. and it's enough that I make an unsourced, unsupported claim, isn't it? Sheesh, that's how it's always been done in the "truth" movement and evidence is never required there. You're just big meanies for asking me for evidence here. And yes, it's true that I failed to consider any legitimate queries about my personal claim to fame - being this new! improved! amazing! unsourced! and undisclosed-but-sure-to-knock-your-socks-off!-evidence that I claim to have - but stop asking me to actually provide evidence of it because I can't. I've never had to provide anything that looks even remotely like evidence on the tinhat threads that I frequent and I'm not about to start now. Pardon me, but I won't be able to answer your questions for a long time to come, if ever, because, well, I have to slink off back to the LC forums in hopes that someone there can help me out because I'm in way over my head here - damn, I hate when that happens."

Got it.

 

[apathoid]

http://z10.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=604&st=30

Okie dokie! The witnesses were wrong about seeing the plane hit the biggest building in the world, but they were able to gauge its exact location with pinpoint accuracy during the approach. Wow. How delusional do you have to be to believe that?

 

[Roger_Harris]

Magnetic.

Okay, this is what I get from the flight data recorder heading of 70 magnetic, adjusted to 59.5 from true north:

http://opendb.com/images/pentagon.jpg

Looks pretty close to the "official" path to me.