Miracle of the Shroud IV - The Phantom Image

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Hans,
- How about if I can establish reasonable doubt with the C14 evidence?


There is no chance. None. You would need a modicum of credibility to establish anything reasonable, and you have thrown all your credibility in the garbage.
Jabba, your credibility is not a boomerang. Once you've thrown it away, it's not coming back.
 
"Reasonable doubt" is what you need to get someone off murder. This is not a criminal trial, it's a scientific question. What you need is to disprove the scientific evidence.


Nope: he needs to provide actual evidence of authenticity. He doesn't get to impose the assumption that the shroud is authentic unless proven not to be.
 
As a summary :

Jabba already purported to use his method of adding small pile of sands in hope to build a castle. He was already told that even in the miraculously improbable event he could find evidence leading to the rejection of the 14C dating of 700 year, it would not in any shape form help a bit an hypothesis of dating of 2000 years, indeed after all all it WOULD demonstrate is that the 14C dating is bad. It would not even invalidate the 700 year date ! Only the finding of a different DATING would invalidate the 700 years date. That is why he is trying to push the stupid vanillin test. Because beside that he has ZERO dating evidence. But even the vanillin test does not help him, as even the author pretend that after 1300+ year there is no vanillin. So even that would leaves the year 1300 to 2000 as possible date, and worst, it would also leave any date BEYOND that e.g. 2000+ and beyond. Because after all there is no tag "Jesus" on this. It could be any random long haired crucified, => for example a thief 2200 years ago near Rome, crucified for some heinous crime.

Without a zero year dating jabba has less than nothing. At best , if you accept the vanillin hypothesis he only has a "older than 1300 years" hypothesis, and that's if you are being generous.
 
So even that would leaves the year 1300 to 2000 as possible date, and worst, it would also leave any date BEYOND that e.g. 2000+ and beyond. Because after all there is no tag "Jesus" on this. It could be any random long haired crucified, => for example a thief 2200 years ago near Rome, crucified for some heinous crime.

I find unlikely that a criminal were carefully shrouded. But satrap Ariobarnazes of Phrygia would be a good candidate as he was crucified and had probably a physical appearance similar to the one the shroud suggests and not like Jesus' real countenance as the Bible describes it.
 
I find unlikely that a criminal were carefully shrouded. But satrap Ariobarnazes of Phrygia would be a good candidate as he was crucified and had probably a physical appearance similar to the one the shroud suggests and not like Jesus' real countenance as the Bible describes it.

Or it could be somebody which the state viewed as criminal but the folk liked. Or simply a heinous criminal loved by his family and tenderly put in a shroud after they got the corpse.

Point is : he cannot even limit to 2000 year old, as the method he pretend to use only tells the lower limit of age. Not the upper limit.
 
Nope: he needs to provide actual evidence of authenticity. He doesn't get to impose the assumption that the shroud is authentic unless proven not to be.

I didn't mean that he would be able to establish the authenticity of the Shroud by disproving the C14 testing, I meant that he couldn't discredit the C14 testing by establishing a "reasonable doubt", but only by disproving the scientific evidence.
 
Nope: he needs to provide actual evidence of authenticity. He doesn't get to impose the assumption that the shroud is authentic unless proven not to be.

Of course not. Still, the C14 result is, obviously, a formidable obstacle for him. So formidable that it is unlikely that any evidence he might provide for authenticy would carry any weight unless he could also discredit the C14 evidence. Thus, I consider it a relevant point.

However, as I say, I will not bother to consider it till such time as Jabba provides any evidence to weaken the C14 result.

Hans
 
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Carbon Dating Doubts

Hans,
- How about if I can establish reasonable doubt with the C14 evidence?

I will consider that if you do.


Hans
- The following list is something I provided previously. Which specific claim would you like me to address first?

The Carbon Dating is suspect.
1. The emotionality in the 10 years of negotiation leading up to the test.
2. Significant protocols determined, but not followed.
3. The size and location of the sample.
4. Potential of repair, contamination and “new” linen.
5. Church (rather than scientists) selects sample.
6. Sample selected at the last moment, after two hours of “ecumenical” debate.
7. Final step in procedure seen by only 2 people, and not videotaped.
8. No test for chemical composition.
9. No archeologist involved.
10. STURP deliberately excluded.
11. Gove eventually excluded.
12. A clear age gradient within the sample.

Here’s a quote from “The Coming of the Quantum Christ” by John Klotz.[Professor Emanuela] Marinelli related to the Valencia Conference [in 2000] how competent scientists attacked the execution of the process and charged the labs with concealing the data necessary to determine adequately what they had done in their experiments. She cited a fifteen point critique of Philippe Bourcier de Carbon delivered at an international symposium in Rome in 1993: 14 (1) Absence of a formal report of the sampling; (2) Absence of a video archive on the final steps of the samples packaging; (3) In the official reports, contradictions about the cutting and the weight of the samples by people in charge of the sampling (4) Breaches of the protocols initially planned for the operation of dating; (5) Rejection of the usual procedure of double-blind test; (6) Refusal of the interdisciplinary documentation, which is usual in the procedures for radiocarbon dating; (7) Exclusion of acknowledged specialists in the Shroud, particularly American scientists who participated in previous works of STURP; (8) Communication to the laboratories, most unusual, of the dates of the control samples prior to testing; (9) Intercommunication of results among the three laboratories during the job; (10) Disclosure to the media of the first results before the delivering of the findings; (11) Refusal to publish raw results of the measurements (requested also with insistence in its official statement by the Scientific Committee which prepared the Symposium in Paris in 1989); (12) Non-explanation of the unique isolation of the confidence interval of the measures performed by the Oxford laboratory compared to those made by other laboratories; (13) Unacceptable value of 6.4 published in the journal Nature for the chi-squared statistical test on the results of the radiocarbon dosage on the Shroud; (14) Rejection of any cross-debate on the statistical measures performed; (15) Rejection, absolutely uncommon, of the publication of the statistical expertise of this operation, officially entrusted to professor Bray of “G. Colonnetti” Institute of Turin (requested also with insistence in its official statement by the Scientific Committee which prepared the Symposium in Paris in 1989).

Numerous respected scholars do not accept the carbon dating as final. For example, from http://shroudstory.com/:
Even the famous Atheist Richard Dawkins admits it is controversial.
Christopher Ramsey, the director of the Oxford Radiocarbon Laboratory, thinks more testing is needed. So do many other scientists and archeologists.
Philip Ball, the former physical science editor for Nature when the carbon dating results were published, recently wrote: “It’s fair to say that, despite the seemingly definitive tests in 1988, the status of the Shroud of Turin is murkier than ever.”
 
- The following list is something I provided previously. Which specific claim would you like me to address first?

The Carbon Dating is suspect.
1. The emotionality in the 10 years of negotiation leading up to the test.
2. Significant protocols determined, but not followed.
3. The size and location of the sample.
4. Potential of repair, contamination and “new” linen.
5. Church (rather than scientists) selects sample.
6. Sample selected at the last moment, after two hours of “ecumenical” debate.
7. Final step in procedure seen by only 2 people, and not videotaped.
8. No test for chemical composition.
9. No archeologist involved.
10. STURP deliberately excluded.
11. Gove eventually excluded.
12. A clear age gradient within the sample.

Here’s a quote from “The Coming of the Quantum Christ” by John Klotz.[Professor Emanuela] Marinelli related to the Valencia Conference [in 2000] how competent scientists attacked the execution of the process and charged the labs with concealing the data necessary to determine adequately what they had done in their experiments. She cited a fifteen point critique of Philippe Bourcier de Carbon delivered at an international symposium in Rome in 1993: 14 (1) Absence of a formal report of the sampling; (2) Absence of a video archive on the final steps of the samples packaging; (3) In the official reports, contradictions about the cutting and the weight of the samples by people in charge of the sampling (4) Breaches of the protocols initially planned for the operation of dating; (5) Rejection of the usual procedure of double-blind test; (6) Refusal of the interdisciplinary documentation, which is usual in the procedures for radiocarbon dating; (7) Exclusion of acknowledged specialists in the Shroud, particularly American scientists who participated in previous works of STURP; (8) Communication to the laboratories, most unusual, of the dates of the control samples prior to testing; (9) Intercommunication of results among the three laboratories during the job; (10) Disclosure to the media of the first results before the delivering of the findings; (11) Refusal to publish raw results of the measurements (requested also with insistence in its official statement by the Scientific Committee which prepared the Symposium in Paris in 1989); (12) Non-explanation of the unique isolation of the confidence interval of the measures performed by the Oxford laboratory compared to those made by other laboratories; (13) Unacceptable value of 6.4 published in the journal Nature for the chi-squared statistical test on the results of the radiocarbon dosage on the Shroud; (14) Rejection of any cross-debate on the statistical measures performed; (15) Rejection, absolutely uncommon, of the publication of the statistical expertise of this operation, officially entrusted to professor Bray of “G. Colonnetti” Institute of Turin (requested also with insistence in its official statement by the Scientific Committee which prepared the Symposium in Paris in 1989).

Numerous respected scholars do not accept the carbon dating as final. For example, from http://shroudstory.com/:
Even the famous Atheist Richard Dawkins admits it is controversial.
Christopher Ramsey, the director of the Oxford Radiocarbon Laboratory, thinks more testing is needed. So do many other scientists and archeologists.
Philip Ball, the former physical science editor for Nature when the carbon dating results were published, recently wrote: “It’s fair to say that, despite the seemingly definitive tests in 1988, the status of the Shroud of Turin is murkier than ever.”


Dear Mr. Savage:

http://www.centerforinquiry.net/blog..._still_a_fake/

...So once again, attacks on the accuracy of the radiocarbon testing have been discredited...
...There is no mass spectrometry evidence that the C14 sample from the Shroud of Turin comes from a ‘medieval invisible mending.’...

...I wonder why you did not comment uponthis, the first time I posted it.
__________________
 
- The following list is something I provided previously. Which specific claim would you like me to address first?

The Carbon Dating is suspect.
1. The emotionality in the 10 years of negotiation leading up to the test.
2. Significant protocols determined, but not followed.
3. The size and location of the sample.
4. Potential of repair, contamination and “new” linen.
5. Church (rather than scientists) selects sample.
6. Sample selected at the last moment, after two hours of “ecumenical” debate.
7. Final step in procedure seen by only 2 people, and not videotaped.
8. No test for chemical composition.
9. No archeologist involved.
10. STURP deliberately excluded.
11. Gove eventually excluded.
12. A clear age gradient within the sample.

Here’s a quote from “The Coming of the Quantum Christ” by John Klotz.[Professor Emanuela] Marinelli related to the Valencia Conference [in 2000] how competent scientists attacked the execution of the process and charged the labs with concealing the data necessary to determine adequately what they had done in their experiments. She cited a fifteen point critique of Philippe Bourcier de Carbon delivered at an international symposium in Rome in 1993: 14 (1) Absence of a formal report of the sampling; (2) Absence of a video archive on the final steps of the samples packaging; (3) In the official reports, contradictions about the cutting and the weight of the samples by people in charge of the sampling (4) Breaches of the protocols initially planned for the operation of dating; (5) Rejection of the usual procedure of double-blind test; (6) Refusal of the interdisciplinary documentation, which is usual in the procedures for radiocarbon dating; (7) Exclusion of acknowledged specialists in the Shroud, particularly American scientists who participated in previous works of STURP; (8) Communication to the laboratories, most unusual, of the dates of the control samples prior to testing; (9) Intercommunication of results among the three laboratories during the job; (10) Disclosure to the media of the first results before the delivering of the findings; (11) Refusal to publish raw results of the measurements (requested also with insistence in its official statement by the Scientific Committee which prepared the Symposium in Paris in 1989); (12) Non-explanation of the unique isolation of the confidence interval of the measures performed by the Oxford laboratory compared to those made by other laboratories; (13) Unacceptable value of 6.4 published in the journal Nature for the chi-squared statistical test on the results of the radiocarbon dosage on the Shroud; (14) Rejection of any cross-debate on the statistical measures performed; (15) Rejection, absolutely uncommon, of the publication of the statistical expertise of this operation, officially entrusted to professor Bray of “G. Colonnetti” Institute of Turin (requested also with insistence in its official statement by the Scientific Committee which prepared the Symposium in Paris in 1989).

Numerous respected scholars do not accept the carbon dating as final. For example, from http://shroudstory.com/:
Even the famous Atheist Richard Dawkins admits it is controversial.
Christopher Ramsey, the director of the Oxford Radiocarbon Laboratory, thinks more testing is needed. So do many other scientists and archeologists.
Philip Ball, the former physical science editor for Nature when the carbon dating results were published, recently wrote: “It’s fair to say that, despite the seemingly definitive tests in 1988, the status of the Shroud of Turin is murkier than ever.”

:sdl::sdl::sdl:
 
The carbon dating disproves it to be "the real shroud", the one of the myth. So the carbon dating must be completely destroyed. So the ****-slinger is turned on and a list of objections, the cloak-and-dagger type, said with concealed coprolalia, is thrown to the multitude of anxious believers.

Jabba is only trying to avoid the shroud to be definitively discredited. He tries to take 100% a fake and make it 99.99% a fake, inflating the remaining 0.01% into his famous preponderance of evidence. So far, an immoral pursue, which comes at no surprise when religious beliefs are involved -for instance the assassins in Turkey-. Only lack of moral orientation can have a person arguing a fake object to be evidence of magic operating during the development of dubious historical events.
 
Seriously? You included the Dawkins bit? How many times do you have to be corrected on this? Read the whole damn quote. Including it is nothing but shameful and dishonest quote mining.

As for the rest, none of the complaints actually impact the conclusion of the three labs. The only thing they show is that STURP was butt hurt about not being included and that they needed to make of phony reasons for the date to be wrong.
 
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- The following list is something I provided previously. Which specific claim would you like me to address first?

Speaking personally, I wouldn't like you to address any of these claims, as they've all been shown to have no validity. Just because you don't accept this is no reason for anyone else to be dragged back into the whirlpool.
 
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