Miracle of the Shroud IV - The Phantom Image

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jond said:
The bigger question is: what difference does it make? The Stradavarius issue renders the entire discussion moot.
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Actually, unless Jabba can demolish the C14 evidence, everything is moot.

Hans
 
Why so many thermal imaging experts? Is there a claim that parts of the Holy Bed-Sheet are hotter than they ought to be?
 
MRC_Hans said:
Actually, unless Jabba can demolish the C14 evidence, everything is moot.

Hans
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Obviously. But we're just looking at his current claim that scientists inability to recreate it indicates authenticity. And the Strad issue (along with the numerous other examples of art from antiquity) renders his claim moot. In the bigger picture, the C14 evidence puts it all to rest. But even without the C14, there's still no evidence of authenticity and mountains of evidence against.
 
Basic Jabba:
1) Create a tangent to the real issue, the age of the ciq
2) Spend pages and pages, sometimes weeks, exploring the tangent
3) As that tangent breathes its last, create a tangent to the tangent
4) GoTo 2)

We're in the middle of this now, spending time:
- talking about the credentials
- of some people who investigated the ciq
- who made some comments
- about aspects of the ciq, including its age
- under Jabba's ever changing rules.

"The only way to win the game is to not play."
 
Jabba said:
Agatha,

- Maybe, this will get us started.

- Don Lynn
- http://www.shroud.com/late00.htm
- Back in 1976 Don Lynn and his colleague Jean Lorre were employed at the Image Processing Laboratory of the Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena. At that time they were working on analysing and enhancing the images that the Viking Lander mission had been sending back from the surface of Mars. Because the techniques they were using seemed applicable to the Shroud, they were approached by the then still embryonic STURP project, leading to Don taking up a strong interest in the Shroud that would never wane. The Jet Propulsion Laboratory allowed Don and his colleague to use the Laboratory's equipment for Shroud research, just so long as the work was done in their own time. Despite intense pressure of work on the Mars images, within months Don became a participant at the Shroud conference held in Albuquerque, New Mexico, March 1977. His special contribution to Shroud studies was to show, via the then very new method of digitizing photographic images, that the Shroud's image has none of the directionality, such as left and right-hand brush-strokes, readily evident whenever paintings are studied by the same methods.

- John Heller
- http://shroudstory.com/2013/12/01/r...john-h-hellera-guest-posting-by-kelly-kearse/

- Alan Adler
- https://www.shroud.com/pdfs/n51part6.pdf

- Robert Bucklin
- https://www.shroud.com/bucklin.htm

- Ray rogers
- https://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Raymon...o_studied_the_Shroud_of_Turin,_dies_at_age_77
- In 1945 he enlisted in the U.S Navy and served as a radar technician during World War II. Thanks to the GI bill, Rogers was able to complete his education at the University of Arizona, majoring in chemistry. Upon graduation in 1948 his first job was with the Arizona Agricultural Experimental Station. There he built a thermal analysis instrument to study soils, and this experience brought him to Los Alamos National Laboratory (LANL) in late 1951.
At LANL Rogers became a group leader of an explosives research-and-development group and was elected Laboratory Fellow in 1981. He later worked for the International Technology division, retiring in 1988. He served on the Department of the Air Force Scientific Advisory Board from 1987 until 1992 with the equivalent rank of Lt. General, receiving their Distinguished Service Award. He received other awards and recognitions from LANL and professional organizations.
Although much of Rogers' research at LANL had military applications including the characterization of exotic explosives for munitions, he was always concerned with explosives safety and chemical hazards. One of his published research results has been incorporated into a standard method for the screening of reactive materials (ASTM method E698). Today this method is used worldwide to obtain reaction rate constants for energetic materials, a necessary first step in avoiding thermal explosions.
Until he retired Rogers was an editor for the two scientific journals, Thermochimica Acta and the Journal of Energetic Materials, and throughout his career he participated in conferences and symposia related to his chosen field. His ground-breaking work in thermal analysis—particularly differential scanning calorimetry—demonstrated the effectiveness of these techniques for characterizing energetic materials with only a few milligrams of sample. A relevant list of Rogers' scientific publications can be found on the Web (Explosives Science).
Rogers was also an accomplished amateur archaeologist who did research on the chemistry of deposits and artifacts of interest in archaeology and geochronology. In 1978 he was invited to become Director of Chemical Research for the Shroud of Turin Research Project (STURP), whose primary goal was to determine the scientific properties of the image on the Shroud of Turin, and what might have caused it. The shroud was a linen fabric purported to be the burial cloth of Jesus of Nazareth.
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Jabba said:
Agatha,
- Accrding to Barrie Schwortz, these are their areas of expertise.

Joseph S. Accetta, Lockheed Corporation* Infrared and thermal imaging
Steven Baumgart, U.S. Air Force Weapons Laboratories* Infrared and thermal imaging
John D. German, U.S. Air Force Weapons Laboratories*
Ernest H. Brooks II, Brooks Institute of Photography* Photography
Mark Evans, Brooks Institute of Photography* Photomicroscopy
Vernon D. Miller, Brooks Institute of Photography* Scientific photography
Robert Bucklin, Harris County,Texas, Medical Examiner's Office Forensic pathology
Donald Devan, Oceanographic Services Inc.* Imaging science
Rudolph J. Dichtl, University of Colorado* Electronic equipment repairs/maintenance
Robert Dinegar, Los Alamos National Scientific Laboratories* Physicist
Donald & Joan Janney, Los Alamos National Scientific Laboratories* Physics and Chemistry
J. Ronald London, Los Alamos National Scientific Laboratories* X-radiography
Roger A. Morris, Los Alamos National Scientific Laboratories* X-radiography
Ray Rogers, Los Alamos National Scientific Laboratories* Chemistry
Larry Schwalbe, Los Alamos National Scientific Laboratories Physicist
Diane Soran, Los Alamos National Scientific Laboratories
Kenneth E. Stevenson, IBM* Public relations
Al Adler, Western Connecticut State University Blood chemistry
Thomas F. D'Muhala, Nuclear Technology Corporation* Administration
Jim Drusik, Los Angeles County Museum Art historian
Joseph Gambescia, St. Agnes Medical Center Medicine
Roger & Marty Gilbert, Oriel Corporation* Spectral data and instrumentation
Thomas Haverty, Rocky Mountain Thermograph* Infrared and thermal imaging
John Heller, New England Institute Medicine and blood chemistry
John P. Jackson, U.S. Air Force Academy* Physicist
Eric J. Jumper, U.S. Air Force Academy* Physicist
Jean Lorre, Jet Propulsion Laboratory* Imaging science
Donald J. Lynn, Jet Propulsion Laboratory* Imaging science (head of imaging for NASA on Voyager, Viking, Mariner and Galileo projects)
Robert W. Mottern, Sandia Laboratories* X-radiography
Samuel Pellicori, Santa Barbara Research Center* Optical science and engineering
Barrie M. Schwortz, Barrie Schwortz Studios* Photography
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Do any of these scientists have any particular expertise in recreating (or even creating) images on cloth?
 
aleCcowaN said:
Everyone, including Jabba, which is the best evidence of the shroud's authenticity? :confused:
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Honestly, there just isn't any. There is nothing that actually points to a first century date, plenty that points to a medieval date, and nothing that comes close to positively identifying the dude in the image.
 
Maurice Ledifficile said:
Honestly, there just isn't any. There is nothing that actually points to a first century date, plenty that points to a medieval date, and nothing that comes close to positively identifying the dude in the image.
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So the shroud is of no use and it's everything pretty much god exists, Jebus heals and saves and the shroud is authentic, as if piling up arbitrary notions made them more likely to be true. Like a rope braided using farts as yarn; the more you use, the stronger the rope.
 
Jabba said:
Agatha,

- Maybe, this will get us started.

[...][/I]
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http://llanoestacado.org/freeinquiry/skeptic/shroud/articles/rogers-ta-response.htm

As it is, educated, informed, and rational individuals don't believe the Shroud is authentic, tend to look on the controversy with either disgust or boredom (as I certainly do), and wish to get on with their lives. The Shroud of Turin is, after all, a notorious religious relic of the Catholic Church, and thus should be regarded with the same skepticism and contempt as other such relics (deciduous teeth, nail cuttings, and foreskins of Jesus, the bones of saints, and pieces of the true cross). If any competent person were to examine the Shroud sticky tape fiber samples--and there must be many thousands of such individuals in this country--it would be elementary to confirm that the fibers are covered by millions of tiny red ocher pigment particles. I challenge STURP to let me, or someone else equally competent, or best, several individuals who have the knowledge to identify red ocher/iron oxide/hematite particles, examine the STURP and Frei sticky tape sample fibers mounted on slides, perhaps at a public joint conference devoted to the microscopic investigation of the Shroud of Turin.
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Put that in your pipe and smoke it.
 
Aepervius said:
Wait a minute why the expertise listed here seem slighty different than the one agatha listed ? At least for the one she found ?

Also all (*) participated in the 1978 examination, but for subsequent test this is severly reduced to :

Robert Bucklin, Harris County,Texas, Medical Examiner's Office Forensic pathology
Larry Schwalbe, Los Alamos National Scientific Laboratories Physicist
Diane Soran, Los Alamos National Scientific Laboratories
Al Adler, Western Connecticut State University Blood chemistry
Jim Drusik, Los Angeles County Museum Art historian
Joseph Gambescia, St. Agnes Medical Center Medicine
John Heller, New England Institute Medicine and blood chemistry

And Robert Buckling guy was a pathologist and did not even pick up on the problem of the projection of the face onto a cloth ? That it could only be a slight imprint and not a shroud falling naturally ?

I also note no spectroscopic expert after 1978 and no real paint expert or cloth expert.

What the heck ?
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I question the competence of a medical examiner who failed to notice that a person cannot lay on their back have their elbows bent at the angle in the image and have their hands covering their genitals.
 
Jabba said:
Hans,
- How about if I can establish reasonable doubt with the C14 evidence?
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You've tried to do that many times and utterly failed. I do mean utterly - infantile arguments, slander and wishful thinking were all you had to offer. Unless you have new evidence to put on the table this time there seems little point in trying again.
 
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