Miracle of the Shroud IV - The Phantom Image

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- The following list is something I provided previously.
Yes, that's the infantile arguments, slander and wishful thinking I meant. It's all been dealt with already. If you want to continue this discussion you need to put something new on the table. Something that isn't infantile, slanderous or wishful thinking.
 
Jabba said:
- The following list is something I provided previously. Which specific claim would you like me to address first?

None of them, since they have already all been addressed.
However, I shall do you a favor and sum up:

1. The emotionality in the 10 years of negotiation leading up to the test.

Irrelevant. C14 is a concrete measurement, it is not influenced by emotions.

2. Significant protocols determined, but not followed.

Immaterial. For a first time procedure (and any forensic instance is a first time in itself), there are always protocol steps that turn out to be impractical.

3. The size and location of the sample.

The size must be ssufficient to obtain a reading. The size was evidently that, or readings would not have been obtained. Modern C14 technology is capable of working with very small samples.

The location was agreed upon. It is normal procedure to choose an unobtrusive location to reduce damage to the artefact.

4. Potential of repair, contamination and “new” linen.

Has been addressed ad nauseam. Invisible repairs are not possible.

Contamination may ofset the result, but nowhere near enough to move the date 13 centuries.

5. Church (rather than scientists) selects sample.
6. Sample selected at the last moment, after two hours of “ecumenical” debate.

Since the church owns the artefact, they must acknowledge the sample site. If the selected location had not been acceptable to the scientists, they would no doubt have refused to do the test.

And, obviously, the church would have had no interest in selecting a sample that was not representative.

7. Final step in procedure seen by only 2 people, and not videotaped.

Irrelevant. Standard procedure does not require observers, or videotaping.

8. No test for chemical composition.

Not required for C14 test. A C14 test requires the sample to be of biological origin, but that was evident.

9. No archeologist involved.

Archeological evaluation was not required. This was just a sample taking.

10. STURP deliberately excluded.
11. Gove eventually excluded.

So what? This was just a sample taking.

12. A clear age gradient within the sample.

Could be due to the mentioned contamination. However, the imprecisions could never be extrapolated, construed, or believed to allow for a 13 century error.

Here’s a quote from “The Coming of the Quantum Christ” by John Klotz. ....Yada yada ....


Numerous respected scholars do not accept the carbon dating as final. For example, from [URL="http://shroudstory.com/:"]http://shroudstory.com/:[/URL]

But until such time as it is repeated, the present result stands.

Even the famous Atheist Richard Dawkins admits it is controversial.

So what? What does Dawkins know about C14 testing?

Christopher Ramsey, the director of the Oxford Radiocarbon Laboratory, thinks more testing is needed. So do many other scientists and archeologists.

Well? Why don't they get on with it, then? Surely, the church would love to have it proved authentic, so what keep them from making a new investigation? (I'll tell you why: They know it will not help them one bit).


Philip Ball, the former physical science editor for Nature when the carbon dating results were published, recently wrote: “It’s fair to say that, despite the seemingly definitive tests in 1988, the status of the Shroud of Turin is murkier than ever.”

The status, perhaps, but not the age.

Hans
 
- The following list is something I provided previously. Which specific claim would you like me to address first?
It has all been done. Have you not been paying attention to this thread?

The Carbon Dating is suspect.
ORLY? Your blatantly dishonest argument is showing.
<snip>
9. No archeologist involved.
While citing a STURP list which also does not include any archeologist.

You are speaking out of both sides of your mouth.

10. STURP deliberately excluded.
As they should be since they are partisan in extremis.

Quantum Christ
The God of the Gaps resurrected.

I suppose that is the best you can do for any form of resurrection, isn't it?

This is just another dishonest fringe reset, Jabba. Do not attempt to pretend it is anything else.
 
Jabba: In addition to MRC_Hans' excellent point by point rebuttal, I'd like to simply add: all of this means nothing. Unless and until you provide evidence in favor of authenticity, there is ZERO reason to consider the shroud to be authentic. Regardless of whether or not the C14 date can be questioned. That you cannot or will not grasp the concept of the burden of proof is entirely your problem.
 
Immaterial. For a first time procedure (and any forensic instance is a first time in itself), there are always protocol steps that turn out to be impractical.


Note also that, true to form, Jabba fails to specify what "significant protocols" were not followed, or why they were "significant".
 
Hans,
- They have all been addressed -- but, not resolved.
- Next Q/C?

Not resolved? Only to you. The rest of the world is perfectly OK with the facts. Meanwhile: why do you refuse to provide positive evidence in favor of authenticity? Is it because you have none?
 
Why so many thermal imaging experts? Is there a claim that parts of the Holy Bed-Sheet are hotter than they ought to be?
I believe it was down to a small number of original participants bring co-workers on board.

Do any of these scientists have any particular expertise in recreating (or even creating) images on cloth?
The only person in STURP with experience in artists materials was James Druzik (not Drusik, Jabba can't even get the name right :rolleyes:) who specialises in preservation of artworks, mainly in the field of light induced damage. He has a B.Sc. in chemistry.

Interestingly Druzik accepted the radiocarbon dating in 1988 and speculated on how the shroud was made, suggesting a statue or idol (rather than an actual corpse) was used.
He's also expressed skepticality about much of STURP's testing and doesn't accept much of the shroud mythos, e.g. the supposed three dimensional and negative images believers have claimed to find.
 
Hans,
- They have all been addressed -- but, not resolved.
- Next Q/C?

The last time I took a direct flight from Europe to Seattle, the pilot didn't concern himself with what the Flat Earth Society thought of his use of a polar route.
 
Hans,
- They have all been addressed -- but, not resolved.
- Next Q/C?

So you again want to dismiss the counter-argument instead of thinking about and responding to it. How is that productive?

If it were up to me, I wouldn't bring the next Q/C into the discussion until you wrote a thoughtful response to the counter-argument that is currently on the table.

I encourage all involved to do the same because I am sick and tired of the disfunctional system, "Jabba's Effective Debate"!
 
Hans,
- They have all been addressed -- but, not resolved.
- Next Q/C?

Dear Mr. Savage:

In what way have you addressed, for instance, the fact that your objection numbered 9 is specious on its face, as demonstrated by the fact that STURP, itself, never invited and archaeologist on board?

Or the fact that your objection numbered 4 is specious on its face, as demonstrated by multiple websites I (and others) have pointed you to; websites you have not even deigned to read, much less "address"?

To say nothing of your ongoing rudeness in simply avoiding the Fe2O3 contradiction your arguments depend upon...
 
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Hans,
- They have all been addressed -- but, not resolved.
- Next Q/C?

Yes, I consider them resolved. You may not think so, but then it is your job to provide convincing arguments.

Hans
 
Carbon Dating Doubts

- The following list is something I provided previously. Which specific claim would you like me to address first?

The Carbon Dating is suspect.
1. The emotionality in the 10 years of negotiation leading up to the test.
2. Significant protocols determined, but not followed.
3. The size and location of the sample.
4. Potential of repair, contamination and “new” linen.
5. Church (rather than scientists) selects sample.
6. Sample selected at the last moment, after two hours of “ecumenical” debate.
7. Final step in procedure seen by only 2 people, and not videotaped.
8. No test for chemical composition.
9. No archeologist involved.
10. STURP deliberately excluded.
11. Gove eventually excluded.
12. A clear age gradient within the sample.

Here’s a quote from “The Coming of the Quantum Christ” by John Klotz.[Professor Emanuela] Marinelli related to the Valencia Conference [in 2000] how competent scientists attacked the execution of the process and charged the labs with concealing the data necessary to determine adequately what they had done in their experiments. She cited a fifteen point critique of Philippe Bourcier de Carbon delivered at an international symposium in Rome in 1993: 14 (1) Absence of a formal report of the sampling; (2) Absence of a video archive on the final steps of the samples packaging; (3) In the official reports, contradictions about the cutting and the weight of the samples by people in charge of the sampling (4) Breaches of the protocols initially planned for the operation of dating; (5) Rejection of the usual procedure of double-blind test; (6) Refusal of the interdisciplinary documentation, which is usual in the procedures for radiocarbon dating; (7) Exclusion of acknowledged specialists in the Shroud, particularly American scientists who participated in previous works of STURP; (8) Communication to the laboratories, most unusual, of the dates of the control samples prior to testing; (9) Intercommunication of results among the three laboratories during the job; (10) Disclosure to the media of the first results before the delivering of the findings; (11) Refusal to publish raw results of the measurements (requested also with insistence in its official statement by the Scientific Committee which prepared the Symposium in Paris in 1989); (12) Non-explanation of the unique isolation of the confidence interval of the measures performed by the Oxford laboratory compared to those made by other laboratories; (13) Unacceptable value of 6.4 published in the journal Nature for the chi-squared statistical test on the results of the radiocarbon dosage on the Shroud; (14) Rejection of any cross-debate on the statistical measures performed; (15) Rejection, absolutely uncommon, of the publication of the statistical expertise of this operation, officially entrusted to professor Bray of “G. Colonnetti” Institute of Turin (requested also with insistence in its official statement by the Scientific Committee which prepared the Symposium in Paris in 1989).

Numerous respected scholars do not accept the carbon dating as final. For example, from http://shroudstory.com/:
Even the famous Atheist Richard Dawkins admits it is controversial.
Christopher Ramsey, the director of the Oxford Radiocarbon Laboratory, thinks more testing is needed. So do many other scientists and archeologists.
Philip Ball, the former physical science editor for Nature when the carbon dating results were published, recently wrote: “It’s fair to say that, despite the seemingly definitive tests in 1988, the status of the Shroud of Turin is murkier than ever.”

None of them, since they have already all been addressed.
However, I shall do you a favor and sum up:

1. The emotionality in the 10 years of negotiation leading up to the test.
Irrelevant. C14 is a concrete measurement, it is not influenced by emotions...

Hans,
- They have all been addressed -- but, not resolved.
- Next Q/C?

Yes, I consider them resolved. You may not think so, but then it is your job to provide convincing arguments.

Hans
Hans,
- OK. I'll start with the first one.
- I'll be back.
 
Some folks were emotionally affected by the idea of running a carbon dating test on a relic. Therefore the test is invalid. Therefore the cloth is 2000 years old.

:crazy:

Dr Emoto proved that water can absorb feelings, as shown during crystallisation. That's with only a few minutes of positive or negative thoughts sent to it. Just imagine how much the structure of the shroud cloth was affected by ten years of emotion being poured into it. No wonder the carbon dating was so far off!

:boxedin:
 
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