Michael Brown Shooting

[LTC8K6]

The bracelet he is wearing in the store looks to be a solid band, and whatever is on the ground looks segmented. Who knows. You certainly get an A for sleuthing.

Well, it's low res video.

About 2:00 in on the left side, has a wife beater on and has his dark shirt over his left shoulder. He runs his right hand through his hair.

NSFW - profanity

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=RqZ8BU6I-jI

Edited by LashL: 

Edited to add NSFW tags. Please, if you're going to link to audio that includes content that is not suitable for workplaces, kindly enclose it in NSFW tags to give reasonable warning to other members.

 

[Skeptic Tank]

Is there, at this point, any reason to so assume that there was a legal justification? There is now evidence that both Brown and Wilson not only had the capacity for violence, but have actually been violent, with Wilson being fatally violent.

Given that, what reason do you have for viewing Brown as "a cartoonish, raving, murderous maniac" and not Wilson?

I disagree with your framing.

In order for Wilson to unload 10+ rounds on someone he didn't even know, who he'd merely seen walking in the middle of the street and being obstinate about getting on the sidewalk, he would have to be a cartoonish, raving, murderous maniac or at the very least an incredible hothead, trigger happy, loose cannon cop. Obviously, at this point a lot of people have moved on from the truly silly version and now think Wilson used excessive force after being attacked by Brown, and killed him when he no longer posed a threat. That, I would argue, still would require him to be the kind of loose cannon, violent cop who probably would've been on the radar for such behavior before this.

Meanwhile, to believe Mike Brown would attack the cop all we have to believe are things we already know about him based on the video (incontrovertible proof) namely, that he was a felon thug who was completely prepared to use violence in order to avoid being held to account for his criminality.

Someone who would behave the way Mike Brown did in the video, is actually quite likely to be the type who says "I can't go to jail!" and impulsively decides to take the risk of attacking the cop who they believe is about to arrest them for their robbery. Happens all the time and it's why police are trained in the ways they are. They expect that sort of desperation-based violence.

I don't know for a fact that Mike Brown would've executed Wilson with his own service pistol had he gained control of it. I consider it likely, but he may not have. Either way, he needn't be a cartoonish, murderous maniac to do those things. All that is required is that he be a dim-witted, criminally inclined, physically violent thug - which we already know for a fact he was.

I think for Wilson to have done anything which rises to the level of prosecuting him, in light of having been attacked and injured by Brown, and having a struggle for control of his firearm moments earlier... would in fact require him to be something fairly cartoonish. Perhaps I'm wrong. But again, as I said earlier... I consider the actions which seem to have been established (attack by Brown on Wilson, struggle for firearm) to create a zone of time immediately following them where "murder" is damned near off the table. When we're talking the seconds following something like that, a suspect ending up dead is just the expected result, and good policing, as far as I'm concerned.

I do acknowledge I was probably being too casual in my appraisal of Wilson's physical stature, and if he's really that big himself, then yes it was wrong to call him a "pipsqueak" I may have been having a touch of fun with that, because he really does look like an adolescent to me. Some people just have a baby face like that, though. The bald cop who got busted for threatening people has a much more convincing "police face."

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Looking for overhead pics, I found this site.

http://theconservativetreehouse.com...-enhanced-audio-transcription-of-eye-witness/

Lots of important pics there, with north/south orientation. Don't let the site name bias you.

There's a bit of dishonesty in that account.

All of the eye-witnesses who have given the alarming testimony of Mike Brown being gunned down while hand’s up in surrender – were all physically located together before giving their initial statements.

Indeed many, if not all, of their initial statements were first given to media as the rest of the group listened.

This is a completely dishonest attempt to claim they all conspired or were lying and didn't see Brown surrender but repeated it because someone else said it.

They also claim the 3 witnesses' stories don't match the forensics, but they do, especially Tiffany Mitchell's account.

I still hear nothing in the recorded chatter except that Brown didn't go down right away and kept coming toward Wilson. That doesn't confirm Brown attacking Wilson unless you hear what you want to hear but that isn't said.

And there is a lot of speculating in the conversation, a lot of pronouns that one can't tell who the speaker is referring to. There are mixed accounts of what Johnson did, one saying he hid behind a car and one saying he was with Brown until later.

One thing that you do hear in that video chatter is confirmation of the audio recording:

8:18 WITNESS 3: I’m tellin you, I heard like, I heard like 8 shots. It was like 4 and then it was like 4 more.

8:24 WITNESS 3: It was like, pop pop pop pop pop and then it stopped for a minute pop pop pop.

People are talking at once and it's not clear what each one is actually referring:

8:30 the police was like at least 10 yards away from this dude, and I’m thinking that…
The dude was still standing.

8:32 WITNESS 1: I’m thinkin that he was missing him!

That would be Wilson a distance away missing Brown.

8:35 WITNESS: but he kept coming towards him.

That would be Brown still a long distance from Wilson.

That's far enough away that if Brown was attacking Wilson wouldn't the witness point that out, that Brown was coming aggressively at Wilson? He doesn't say that, he just says "kept coming", as in wasn't shot yet. He doesn't say, kept coming as in was running toward Wilson.

What to you do when you are surrendering? You might walk toward the officer trying to let him know you were surrendering if the cop kept shooting at you after you stopped and turned around.

Obviously the smarter thing to do would have been to get on the ground. But everyone doesn't think clearly in such situations. Or, Brown didn't move fast enough getting on the ground because we know he was almost all the way down when the fatal shots hit his head.

8:40 WITNESS 1: Then the other dude Broke off running.

8:44 WITNESS 1: His Partner ran through…

There are a lot of references like this in the recording where you can't tell who they are talking about or where people are in relation to where they ran/moved to.

With the three other witnesses they clearly explain what they are talking about. It isn't snippets of unclear information.


Trying to match those offhand witness comments with the gun shot audio, it's unclear if Wilson did or did not shoot while Brown was fleeing. If the shooting started after Brown turned around, why do that if Brown stops, turns around and is still "10 yards" away from Wilson?

At that point Wilson should have been yelling, "Get on the ground, show your hands."

There is no claim Wilson thought he saw a gun. Or at least it's not in the narrative at this point. If sources who know what Wilson's story is actually did confirm the FaceBook/Josie call-in account, the claim is Wilson was afraid Brown was running toward him to attack.

At 10 yards away an unarmed suspect is going to charge? Highly unlikely. Supposedly Wilson claims there were verbal taunts in there telling Wilson Brown didn't believe he would shoot? Wilson was already shooting so does that make sense?

And if Brown was 10 yards away, many other people would have been within earshot to hear Brown taunting Wilson.

Did the witnesses on the video say one thing about hearing Brown shout anything? No.

So from a distance, whether Brown is running away or has turned around by that time, Wilson's first volley of shots heard on the audio go off. They wound Brown, but "the dude kept coming" so we can see they didn't drop Brown.

That means the last 4 shots did. All within seconds and at least 2 of those shots were in the top of the head. Brown was already down, whether he fell or was getting down.

Think about the logistics of that. A volley of shots, a pause, then shots in the head of a person falling or getting down.

At what point did Wilson feel threatened before the fatal shots and at what point did Brown reach the position with his head down?

Mike (forum diagrams) could not recreate the parallel wound trajectories in Brown's head with a shot coming horizontal. If Brown had his head down bull rushing Wilson, Mike should have been able to show that.

If Brown was almost on the ground, lower than gun height, you can show the trajectories if the bullets are coming in at that angle.

Now if you want to go the Arias route and say the bullets could have distorted trajectories, is it likely they would be parallel and both distorted in the same direction and angle?


In other words, the head wounds and the 3 second pause in shooting are both seriously problematic for Wilson and the off-hand conversations on the video don't overcome the problem. The yelled taunts and bull-rushing scenario don't fit the physical evidence and eye-witness accounts.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I disagree with your framing.

In order for Wilson to unload 10+ rounds on someone he didn't even know, who he'd merely seen walking in the middle of the street and being obstinate about getting on the sidewalk, he would have to be a cartoonish, raving, murderous maniac or at the very least an incredible hothead, trigger happy, loose cannon cop. Obviously, at this point a lot of people have moved on from the truly silly version and now think Wilson used excessive force after being attacked by Brown, and killed him when he no longer posed a threat. That, I would argue, still would require him to be the kind of loose cannon, violent cop who probably would've been on the radar for such behavior before this.

But you don't know he wasn't, we only know nothing was put in his file. We don't know if anything was in his file in Jennings but we know the whole department had problems and that's who he learned policing from.

Meanwhile, to believe Mike Brown would attack the cop all we have to believe are things we already know about him based on the video (incontrovertible proof) namely, that he was a felon thug who was completely prepared to use violence in order to avoid being held to account for his criminality.

Cartoonish exaggeration anyone?

I don't know for a fact that Mike Brown would've executed Wilson with his own service pistol had he gained control of it. I consider it likely, but he may not have. Either way, he needn't be a cartoonish, murderous maniac to do those things. All that is required is that he be a dim-witted, criminally inclined, physically violent thug - which we already know for a fact he was.

Because he shoved a store clerk and stole cigars you consider this likely? Wow!

You do know Brown also had no criminal record, right?

 

[Skeptic Tank]

Because he shoved a store clerk and stole cigars you consider this likely? Wow!

No, because he attacked a police officer and tried to gain control of that officer's firearm. If that is indeed what happened, then the natural next step for a criminal is to blow the cop away so the cop can't radio backup, regain control of the first firearm, or go for a secondary firearm.

If someone's crazy and violent enough to attack a cop and try to take his gun, 9 times out of 10 they're also crazy and violent enough to put a few rounds in the cop with his firearm. That's sort of the typical progression if you observe those kinds of cases. I'm unfamiliar with any cases where a criminal takes a cop's gun and says "you can have this back once you've finished your vegetables."

What Brown did in the store is only a small "bonus" in this determination.

You do know Brown also had no criminal record, right?

No, I don't know that. I would wager he probably had a pretty impressive juvenile record.

 

[carlitos]

Because you are 18, a cop just yelled at you, screeched tires getting back stopping his car right next to you, and grabbed you through his car window then shot at you. You reflexively panic, start to run, realize that was a mistake, and you turn around to surrender.

Cartoonish exaggeration anyone?

 

[sir drinks-a-lot]

My jaw would drop if anyone considered it unlikely.

 

[Upchurch]

I disagree with your framing.

It was Unabogie's framing. You just tacitly agreed with it when you presented the store security footage of as evidence.

Meanwhile, to believe Mike Brown would attack the cop all we have to believe are things we already know about him based on the video (incontrovertible proof) namely, that he was a felon thug who was completely prepared to use violence in order to avoid being held to account for his criminality.

I'm sure you mean "alleged felon thug", only without the "thug", because Fifth Amendment and all. And it's a long way from pushing and intimidating someone to wrestling someone for their gun and attempting to kill them over a few cigars.

Someone who would behave the way Mike Brown did in the video, is actually quite likely to be the type who says "I can't go to jail!" and impulsively decides to take the risk of attacking the cop who they believe is about to arrest them for their robbery.

What amazing psychic powers you must have. Do you have evidence for any of this speculation?

I think for Wilson to have done anything which rises to the level of prosecuting him, in light of having been attacked and injured by Brown, and having a struggle for control of his firearm moments earlier... would in fact require him to be something fairly cartoonish. Perhaps I'm wrong.

There have been several instances of violent police behavior in the news and various other media. Can we really take it for granted that Wilson behaved rationally and appropriately? (Just as we can not take for granted that Brown did so?)

My point is that you, and many in this thread, appear to have jumped to conclusions concerning these people and the encounter between them with far too little evidence to support those conclusions.

 

[Axiom_Blade]

I don't know for a fact that Mike Brown would've executed Wilson with his own service pistol had he gained control of it. I consider it likely, but he may not have. Either way, he needn't be a cartoonish, murderous maniac to do those things. All that is required is that he be a dim-witted, criminally inclined, physically violent thug - which we already know for a fact he was.

I do acknowledge I was probably being too casual in my appraisal of Wilson's physical stature, and if he's really that big himself, then yes it was wrong to call him a "pipsqueak" I may have been having a touch of fun with that, because he really does look like an adolescent to me. Some people just have a baby face like that, though. The bald cop who got busted for threatening people has a much more convincing "police face."

So, let's recap. Brown pushed a store clerk, and Wilson does not have a "police face". Well, I'm convinced!

By the way, as of this writing, the two fundraisers for Darren Wilson have raised together $427,405, while the Michael Brown Memorial fundraiser has only raised $292,137. Of course, there is absolutely nothing racist going on here at all, and it would be tacky and tasteless to suggest otherwise. I mean, sure, the donors to the Darren Wilson fund don't know whether or not he's innocent, but I'm sure that it would be exactly the same if Brown had been a white kid. Right?

 

[Skeptic Tank]

I don't use "alleged" when I have video of the crime taking place and admissions of it being exactly what it looks like from the deceased's family and his friend who was present at the time.

We have video of Michael Brown committing strong-arm robbery. A violent felony, and an action which requires one to be a thug (you cannot do it without being one.) Period.

Do I know Wilson acted appropriately? No. But I do think proving he didn't is beyond what the evidence is going to be able to do, and so we should err on the side of giving a police officer with a facial injury the benefit of the doubt about shooting a violent thug felon fresh off his latest felony.

That's well within the bounds of "benefit of the doubt" for a sworn officer of the law. Prosecution wouldn't even be a distant dream in anyone's mind if this was a 5'2" black female cop with a facial injury who'd encountered a 6'4" 292lb white violent felon with his criminal friend and shot him under these exact circumstances.

The community in Ferguson would feel 180 degrees from how they feel now, and would be crying racism if she was even under investigation for it. Hence my complete, utter void of respect for them.

My view of the case would be 100% identical to what it is now. Enjoy the dirt nap, hypothetical white thug. Commendation for black female officer, good shoot.

 

[Lerxst]

But you don't know he wasn't, we only know nothing was put in his file. We don't know if anything was in his file in Jennings but we know the whole department had problems and that's who he learned policing from.

Cartoonish exaggeration anyone?



Because he shoved a store clerk and stole cigars you consider this likely? Wow!

You do know Brown also had no criminal record, right?

What do you think Brown would have done with the weapon had he gotten ahold of it? Please answer the question, don't dodge, hand-wave, or ask another question instead.

 

[newyorkguy]

Judging from comments I've heard from some of the Michael Brown-like homies around the neighborhood, Brown may've reacted the way allegedly he did with Wilson because:

The brother was tired of the police talking to people like they dirt.

 

[Unabogie]

Glide, the company that makes the software that recorded the alleged audio of the shooting, confirms that the recording was made when the man says it was.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/28/justice/michael-brown-ferguson-shooting-audio/index.html

The company behind the video messaging service that allegedly captured audio of Michael Brown's shooting this month said Thursday the recording was created at about the time Brown was killed.
The revelation from the company, Glide, appears to bolster a man's claim that he inadvertently recorded audio of gunfire at the time the 18-year-old Brown was shot and killed by a Ferguson, Missouri, police officer on August 9.
The video was created at 12:02:14 p.m. that day, Glide said. That's around the time that police say Brown was shot.

So this tape may just be authentic. Judging from this recording, what are the odds that Darren Wilson actually did run after Brown while firing his weapon, but then Brown suddenly stopped, turned around, taunted Wilson and told him "you're not gonna shoot me", and then started to charge Wilson, all before the 2-3 seconds elapsed and he started shooting again?

I really hope he wrote this tale down somewhere, because otherwise he'll have a chance to deny he ever made the claim. In the meantime, his narrative is crumbling.

 

[Axiom_Blade]

We have video of Michael Brown committing strong-arm robbery. A violent felony, and an action which requires one to be a thug (you cannot do it without being one.) Period.

Do I know Wilson acted appropriately? No. But I do think proving he didn't is beyond what the evidence is going to be able to do, and so we should err on the side of giving a police officer with a facial injury the benefit of the doubt about shooting a violent thug felon fresh off his latest felony.

I heard that if you say "thug", "violent", and "felon" enough times, it makes your argument sound. BTW, you can't prove a negative. That's a logical fallacy.

That's well within the bounds of "benefit of the doubt" for a sworn officer of the law. Prosecution wouldn't even be a distant dream in anyone's mind if this was a 5'2" black female cop with a facial injury who'd encountered a 6'4" 292lb white violent felon with his criminal friend and shot him under these exact circumstances.

Why change Wilson's gender?

The community in Ferguson would feel 180 degrees from how they feel now, and would be crying racism if she was even under investigation for it. Hence my complete, utter void of respect for them.

"In my hypothetical, imaginary scenario, these people are having a hypothetical, imaginary reaction. This is why I have absolutely no respect for them."

My view of the case would be 100% identical to what it is now.

Of course it would.

 

[Skeptic Tank]

So, let's recap. Brown pushed a store clerk, and Wilson does not have a "police face". Well, I'm convinced!

That wasn't intended to be a serious or compelling argument. I allow myself some tongue in cheek musing from time to time. Which is not to say I don't think what I said there, I do. I just am not putting it forth as some sort of serious argument. I don't expect anyone to find it compelling, but I do bet I'm not the only one who has thought Wilson looks like a teenager accepting a trophy at high school while his proud parents take pictures, there. He doesn't look like an intimidating figure to me, but I might change my tune if I'd seen him face to face as he was interacting with Brown and Johnson. Who knows?

By the way, as of this writing, the two fundraisers for Darren Wilson have raised together $427,405, while the Michael Brown Memorial fundraiser has only raised $292,137. Of course, there is absolutely nothing racist going on here at all, and it would be tacky and tasteless to suggest otherwise. I mean, sure, the donors to the Darren Wilson fund don't know whether or not he's innocent, but I'm sure that it would be exactly the same if Brown had been a white kid. Right?

Why would you need or feel inclined to look to racism as an explanation for that?

A single red penny being raised on behalf of a violent thug who'd just attacked a store clerk while robbing him, and then attacked a cop before being shot... is a scandal. Let alone three White House representatives attending his funeral. This is a common street thug who society is better off without. Feel bad about it if you want, but criminals like that drop like flies in many bad areas around this country. They drop like flies because of the lives they lead, and the areas are bad because of their presence in them. They are not sympathetic figures. They make society tangibly worse by being in it.

So, I'm not sure why anyone would donate money to Michael Brown... he's dead, and the money won't be helping him. Even sympathetically trying to help his parents with funeral costs is hard to justify. They failed completely at raising him, and they should have done precisely one press conference to come out and apologize to Officer Wilson and the community for unleashing that scourge upon them. Their poorly raised thug of a son was a menace, and very likely nearly killed an officer who was there trying to make that area safer for the people who are now crying out for his blood. Another reason to have zero respect for said community, though I'm sure there are some good people sprinkled throughout.

Whereas, donating money to a police officer, someone who works in dangerous conditions to make all of our lives safer and would be the first one there helping you if you were injured or in danger... is very understandable. Especially when that officer is being targeted for a lynching for doing his job. I have yet to see any compelling reason to think him shooting this thug was anything beyond what any officer would do in that situation. We'll see if such evidence ever comes out. I'll be happy to re-evaluate at that time.

So I'm not sure why you think racism is needed to explain these donations. Though I grant you it certainly explains the donations to Brown, and the thirst for Wilson's blood.

 

[Upchurch]

We have video of Michael Brown committing strong-arm robbery. A violent felony, and an action which requires one to be a thug (you cannot do it without being one.) Period.

We have a video of Brown shoving a guy. He was probably stealing the cigars, but as far as I am aware, no charges were filed and he certainly wasn't convicted. Regardless, that is no reason to believe he would either wrestle a cop or attempt to kill someone.

But I do think proving he didn't is beyond what the evidence is going to be able to do[1], and so we should err on the side of giving a police officer with a facial injury the benefit of the doubt[2]

1. Why?
2. Why?

That's well within the bounds of "benefit of the doubt" for a sworn officer of the law.

As we have seen, sworn officers of the law are not above acting like thugs themselves. I see no reason for giving them the benefit of the doubt above anyone else who has shot and killed another human being.

Prosecution wouldn't even be a distant dream in anyone's mind if this was a 5'2" black female cop with a facial injury who'd encountered a 6'4" 292lb white violent felon with his criminal friend and shot him under these exact circumstances.

The community in Ferguson would feel 180 degrees from how they feel now, and would be crying racism if she was even under investigation for it. Hence my complete, utter void of respect for them.

Again, your psychic powers are amazing. Perhaps you would be better off sticking to the evidence as it currently exists.

 

[LTC8K6]

Glide, the company that makes the software that recorded the alleged audio of the shooting, confirms that the recording was made when the man says it was.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/28/justice/michael-brown-ferguson-shooting-audio/index.html



So this tape may just be authentic. Judging from this recording, what are the odds that Darren Wilson actually did run after Brown while firing his weapon, but then Brown suddenly stopped, turned around, taunted Wilson and told him "you're not gonna shoot me", and then started to charge Wilson, all before the 2-3 seconds elapsed and he started shooting again?

I really hope he wrote this tale down somewhere, because otherwise he'll have a chance to deny he ever made the claim. In the meantime, his narrative is crumbling.

Okay, this also goes to my point about Brown's body being very far away from Wilson's SUV.

The reason we don't hear the round fired from the vehicle, is because it's pretty far away from the rest of the shooting, and the window is angled away.

 

[Upchurch]

Also, I will fully admit to being unable to keep up with this thread 100%. Is there solid evidence that Brown tried to wrestle Wilson's gun from him? What's the source of that?

 

[Lerxst]

Also, I will fully admit to being unable to keep up with this thread 100%. Is there solid evidence that Brown tried to wrestle Wilson's gun from him? What's the source of that?

No there is no solid evidence that we know of. If it does come to light though I don't think it will change anyone's mind. For those that think Brown's life was forfeit as soon as he tried to get Wilson's weapon, they will just say "I told you so!". For those that think Wilson executed Brown, they will say "it doesn't matter!".

 

[Monketi Ghost]

That post has some big brass ones.