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Michael Brown Shooting

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TheL8Elvis said:
From the police chief, august 10th

http://www.ksdk.com/story/news/crim...olice-news-conference-michael-brown/13860601/

Belmar said the incident started when Brown physically assaulted the police officer, pushing him into the officer's vehicle. He said there was a struggle inside the car, and at some point Brown reached for the officer's weapon. One shot was fired inside the vehicle.
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Upchurch said:
Also, I will fully admit to being unable to keep up with this thread 100%. Is there solid evidence that Brown tried to wrestle Wilson's gun from him? What's the source of that?
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We don't have access to the the actual evidence, witness statements, etc

Most of the evidence we have in this case is from the media, and those who want to try the case in the media, so have gone to the media to give interviews, talk about evidence, etc.


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Lerxst said:
No there is no solid evidence that we know of. If it does come to light though I don't think it will change anyone's mind. For those that think Brown's life was forfeit as soon as he tried to get Wilson's weapon, they will just say "I told you so!". For those that think Wilson executed Brown, they will say "it doesn't matter!".
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What if it turns out Brown wasn't trying to get Wilson's gun? I imagine that would encourage those who think Wilson executed Brown. (I am not one of them, fwiw.) But, surely that would directly contradict the former position?
 
TheL8Elvis said:
We don't have access to the the actual evidence, witness statements, etc

Most of the evidence we have in this case is from the media, and those who want to try the case in the media, so have gone to the media to give interviews, talk about evidence, etc.
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It seems Skeptic Tank's characterizations are a tad premature, then. I'm sure others' are as well, but ST's caught my eye.

I don't really care if Wilson is a police officer or not. There seems to be no disagreement that he shot and killed Brown. It is only reasonable that he have a chance to defend himself for that action and be held accountable if need be.
 
Axiom_Blade said:
By the way, as of this writing, the two fundraisers for Darren Wilson have raised together $427,405, while the Michael Brown Memorial fundraiser has only raised $292,137. Of course, there is absolutely nothing racist going on here at all, and it would be tacky and tasteless to suggest otherwise. I mean, sure, the donors to the Darren Wilson fund don't know whether or not he's innocent, but I'm sure that it would be exactly the same if Brown had been a white kid. Right?
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An appeal to popularity coupled with some racist projection and / or mind reading. Not too cool.
 
Upchurch said:
Also, I will fully admit to being unable to keep up with this thread 100%. Is there solid evidence that Brown tried to wrestle Wilson's gun from him? What's the source of that?
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There is no solid evidence that Brown attempted to take Wilson's gun.

As is recall, more than one witness has indicated the first shot was fired during an altercation while officer Wilson was still inside the SUV. But that isn't really proof that Brown attempted to grab the firearm.

What I haven't yet heard is where Wilson's firearm would be when he was driving the SUV. Was it somewhere a person standing outside the vehicle could reach?
 
Lerxst said:
No there is no solid evidence that we know of. If it does come to light though I don't think it will change anyone's mind. For those that think Brown's life was forfeit as soon as he tried to get Wilson's weapon, they will just say "I told you so!". For those that think Wilson executed Brown, they will say "it doesn't matter!".
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It actually doesn't matter because Wilson didn't shoot him during the struggle in the vehicle. If he did, a lot less people would have a problem with the end result.
 
It is logical that if Brown attacked Wilson in any way, Wilson would draw or attempt to draw his gun. It is what any cop would do when attacked by someone Brown's size.

It is also logical that Brown would try to gain control of the firearm at that point. He'd either do that or surrender but someone who attacks a cop is more likely to keep doing the stupid thing.

Since we know a struggle people couldn't see their hands during took place inside the cruiser, a struggle for the weapon is a near certainty.
 
Kestrel said:
What I haven't yet heard is where Wilson's firearm would be when he was driving the SUV. Was it somewhere a person standing outside the vehicle could reach?
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It's a valid question. SUV windows are fairly high up and it's hard to imagine someone of Brown's size being able to get very far into the car through the window. (That's the claim, right? That he went for the gun through the window?)
 
Upchurch said:
What if it turns out Brown wasn't trying to get Wilson's gun? I imagine that would encourage those who think Wilson executed Brown. (I am not one of them, fwiw.) But, surely that would directly contradict the former position?
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I prefer to use the term unjustified shooting, but I agree it will certainly encourage Brown's family if it can be proven that he did not try for the weapon. If it can be proven that he did though, I imagine the argument will still be made that even though Brown tried to get Wilson's weapon, that he then ran away and therefore Wilson should not have shot him. The question though is how will a court of law see it? I don't see any way there is no trial of some sort, either criminal or civil.
 
Skeptic Tank said:
Hard to imagine why Wilson would shoot Brown absent such actions.
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A police officer is in an adreline-fueled state of panic/fear/anger after being assaulted by a physically imposing robbery suspect. The suspect flees, and in the span of seconds - without any time to think - he squeezes the trigger more times than reasonable force allows.

I find that scenario a lot more plausible than one in which someone is running away from a cop shooting at him, decides to stop and taunt the cop, and then charges the cop "like a bull" directly into a hail of bullets.
 
johnny karate said:
It actually doesn't matter because Wilson didn't shoot him during the struggle in the vehicle. If he did, a lot less people would have a problem with the end result.
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Well yes that is exactly the response I would expect and predicted. I don't know if that's the way a court of law will see it, but I have no doubt that question will be eventually answered.
 
johnny karate said:
A police officer is in an adreline-fueled state of panic/fear/anger after being assaulted by a physically imposing robbery suspect. The suspect flees, and in the span of seconds - without any time to think - he squeezes the trigger more times than reasonable force allows.

I find that scenario a lot more plausible than one in which someone is running away from a cop shooting at him, decides to stop and taunt the cop, and then charges the cop "like a bull" directly into a hail of bullets.
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I agree that scenario is likely, though given Brown's other actions I would not rule out him dying while still acting like a violent idiot who thought he was invincible as many teens do.

Thing is, if your scenario is spot on, and I think there's a very good chance it is, what punishment is appropriate? I say none.
 
Lerxst said:
Well yes that is exactly the response I would expect and predicted. I don't know if that's the way a court of law will see it, but I have no doubt that question will be eventually answered.
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How so? How will we resolve the question of whether or not he "went for the gun"? Darren Wilson will almost certainly make this claim. No one who was close enough to the scuffle has agreed with that claim. So in the end, you'll have his word vs. Dorian Johnson's. How is that different from what we know now? Furthermore, what will forensics show us? I suppose we could find Mike Brown's fingerprints on the gun, and if so, that would be pretty hard evidence. But absent that, what evidence do you imagine will answer this question you have no doubt will be answered?
 
Lerxst said:
I prefer to use the term unjustified shooting
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Much better. I am certainly in the camp that thinks that is one of two valid possibilities.

Skeptic Tank said:
My understanding is that all witnesses who saw that period of time agree on them struggling inside the SUV with Wilson still inside and Brown leaning in the window.
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You've gone from "know" to having an "understanding". That is the problem with jumping to conclusions.

What witnesses are you referring to and what did they actually say?
 
Keep in mind, finding evidence if Brown touching the gun would prove he tried for it, but not finding it wouldn't prove he didn't. You can try for a gun without touching it, or touch a gun without depositing prints/DNA, or touch Wilson's hand rather than the gun, etc.
 
Lerxst said:
Well yes that is exactly the response I would expect and predicted. I don't know if that's the way a court of law will see it, but I have no doubt that question will be eventually answered.
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I'm pretty sure most courts of law would say that you can't kill someone and claim self-defense if that person was not an imminent threat to you. And a person running away from you is certainly not an imminent threat, even if they had previously tried to take your gun.

This is why the "charging like a bull" scenario has gained traction. It's necessary for a legitimate self-defense claim.
 
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