Medium finds missing woman in UK river

[catsmate]

Let's not forget, most of the great scientists, including those who formed the Royal Society all believed in alchemy (the forerunner of Chemistry) and astrology at some point.

So what?

 

[P.J. Denyer]

In my experience it's usually only believers who insist that 'true', 'deliberate fraud' and 'deluded' are the only possible explanations of supposedly paranormal powers and events, when 'honestly mistaken' is by far the most likely explanation of most of them.

"Honestly Mistaken" is a subset of "Deluded", I know the word is often used as an insult but it literally means 'believing something that is not true'.

 

[welshdean]

I have no opinion on Jason Rothwell's claim he found the body because as a medium he had a 'gift'.

Credit where credit is due.

What credit is due?

 

[Nessie]

Jason and his friend were not dog walkers.

I didn't say they were. I remarked that bodies are often found by dog walkers, obviously, because of the dog.

They found the body on day 24 because the tide was high and it had floated upwards to become visible amongst the reeds.

Credit where credit is due.

Which is why the police left the paths open as much as possible, because by letting the public also look, they hugely increased the chances of a body being spotted.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

I have no opinion on Jason Rothwell's claim he found the body because as a medium he had a 'gift'.

The proof is in the pudding, is it not? Mr. Rothwell, was a practising medium - you can see his adverts for spiritualist meetings - so at some stage decided he had some kind of spiritualist ability. So Mr. Rothwell using his special powers, did get guidance (he claims) that led him to the body.

Voilá! He put his money where his mouth is.

What more do you want?

Uh huh.

No Vixen, the guy did not find the body because of a gift. If he thinks he has psychic powers he's either deluding himself, lying or mentally ill. Psychics aren't real.

ETA: Also just an FYI, the correct saying is "the proof of the pudding is in the eating". "The proof is in the pudding" makes no sense as a folk saying. I'm also well aware that you're not alone in making this mistake.

 

[Vixen]

Seems to me the law of large numbers suggest lucky guesses like this will happen; I think there was a guy somewhere who tested this sort of nonsense and it never turned out to be magic.

Can't remember who that was.

If the police had found the body would you be calling it a lucky guess?

 

[Vixen]

Is there evidence that the supposed "medium" was one of the people who discovered the corpse?

Same guy as in the photo taken by an entirely independent press photographer passing by. He only came forward because a lot of people recognised him. He wasn't self-promoting.

 

[Vixen]

So what?

A poster claimed that anyone who believed in such stuff was either a fraud or mentally ill, so I pointed out that most of the great scientists of history believed in that stuff. Thus his claim that his assertion is the only correct one is demonstrably untrue, as is readily shown by the great men and women of history.

 

[Resume]

If the police had found the body would you be calling it a lucky guess?

I wouldn't attribute it to "psychic" ability, because that's not a demonstrated phenomena. On the other hand, investigative skills and just plain dumb luck have been.

 

[Vixen]

What credit is due?

He found the body did he not, which he claims was due to his 'gift'.

If Mr. Faulding had found the body you would give Mr. Faulding credit would you not?

 

[Vixen]

I didn't say they were. I remarked that bodies are often found by dog walkers, obviously, because of the dog.



Which is why the police left the paths open as much as possible, because by letting the public also look, they hugely increased the chances of a body being spotted.

Then what stopped the police from passing by and spotting it?

 

[Ethan Thane Athen]

He found the body did he not, which he claims was due to his 'gift'.

If Mr. Faulding had found the body you would give Mr. Faulding credit would you not?

I think most would be willing to credit him with finding the body, just not by some psychic mechanism but by simply looking where it happened to be. Similarly if sonar was demonstrably a load of wank, but Faulding found the body, we’d credit him with finding it by looking where it was but not credit sonar as the mechanism.

 

[Vixen]

Uh huh.

No Vixen, the guy did not find the body because of a gift. If he thinks he has psychic powers he's either deluding himself, lying or mentally ill. Psychics aren't real.

ETA: Also just an FYI, the correct saying is "the proof of the pudding is in the eating". "The proof is in the pudding" makes no sense as a folk saying. I'm also well aware that you're not alone in making this mistake.

A poster and yourself claim it is impossible he used psychic powers to find the body. However, if as you an the other poster claim it is impossible for him to have any such powers, how is he supposed to prove it, other than by doing it?

This is an exercise in logic. If something only becomes true by scientific method, what better method than actually producing a solid tangible result?

Another poster came along and said it was ;just a coincidence'. However, isn't the theory of synchonicity (usually accredited to Carl Jung) also equally impossible to prove and therefore just as much bunkum as spiritualism?

Yet another poster claimed it was 'a lucky guess'. However, since when was 'luck' anything to do with science either? Why is luck and coincidence elevated higher than Mr. Rothwell's professed spiritualistic powers?

How come nobody found the body by luck or by coincidence - or even by police search teams looking over and over again for three weeks or the SGI expert Faulding and his £55,000 sonar machine - but by being guided by spirits (claims Mr. Rothwell)?

 

[Vixen]

I wouldn't attribute it to "psychic" ability, because that's not a demonstrated phenomena. On the other hand, investigative skills and just plain dumb luck have been.

He demonstrated 'the phenomenon' by finding the body after 24 days of failure by everybody else.

 

[LondonJohn]

A poster and yourself claim it is impossible he used psychic powers to find the body. However, if as you an the other poster claim it is impossible for him to have any such powers, how is he supposed to prove it, other than by doing it?

This is an exercise in logic. If something only becomes true by scientific method, what better method than actually producing a solid tangible result?

Another poster came along and said it was ;just a coincidence'. However, isn't the theory of synchonicity (usually accredited to Carl Jung) also equally impossible to prove and therefore just as much bunkum as spiritualism?

Yet another poster claimed it was 'a lucky guess'. However, since when was 'luck' anything to do with science either? Why is luck and coincidence elevated higher than Mr. Rothwell's professed spiritualistic powers?

How come nobody found the body by luck or by coincidence - or even by police search teams looking over and over again for three weeks or the SGI expert Faulding and his £55,000 sonar machine - but by being guided by spirits (claims Mr. Rothwell)?

Hoooo boy....

That guy did not use any "supernatural powers" to find the body. Because that guy did/does not have any "supernatural powers". Because nobody in human (or any sentient lifeform) history has ever had any "supernatural powers". They do not exist. The clue is also in the name, incidentally.

That guy found the body because a) he was out looking specifically for the body, and b) he happened to be looking in the place where the body had become lodged in the reeds/branches. And that's the only reason why/how he found the body.

As I and others have repeatedly told you - and as science shows with extremely, extremely high confidence levels (to the point of practical certainty) - if this guy seriously thinks he has "supernatural powers", to the point where he styles himself as such, then he is either a charlatan or he has some form of mental health disorder. There's no third possibility.

 

[LondonJohn]

He demonstrated 'the phenomenon' by finding the body after 24 days of failure by everybody else.

You have quite some "cause and effect" problem going on here, don't you?

If your thinking is sufficiently credulous and unscientific for you to believe that 1) this man used supernatural abilities to locate the body, and 2) supernatural abilities actually exist..... then feel free to labour under that misapprehension. But you're wrong. And, as a slight aside, this might not be the internet forum for you........

 

[Jack by the hedge]

A poster and yourself claim it is impossible he used psychic powers to find the body. However, if as you an the other poster claim it is impossible for him to have any such powers, how is he supposed to prove it, other than by doing it?



This is an exercise in logic. If something only becomes true by scientific method, what better method than actually producing a solid tangible result?



Another poster came along and said it was ;just a coincidence'. However, isn't the theory of synchonicity (usually accredited to Carl Jung) also equally impossible to prove and therefore just as much bunkum as spiritualism?



Yet another poster claimed it was 'a lucky guess'. However, since when was 'luck' anything to do with science either? Why is luck and coincidence elevated higher than Mr. Rothwell's professed spiritualistic powers?



How come nobody found the body by luck or by coincidence - or even by police search teams looking over and over again for three weeks or the SGI expert Faulding and his £55,000 sonar machine - but by being guided by spirits (claims Mr. Rothwell)?

They spotted the body by chance, thanks in part to the rise in the water level and the body floating.

By chance. Not magic. Not synchronicity. Not special powers. Just happening to be in the right place at the right time.

Paranormal powers are just pretend.

 

[Vixen]

Hoooo boy....

That guy did not use any "supernatural powers" to find the body. Because that guy did/does not have any "supernatural powers". Because nobody in human (or any sentient lifeform) history has ever had any "supernatural powers". They do not exist. The clue is also in the name, incidentally.

That guy found the body because a) he was out looking specifically for the body, and b) he happened to be looking in the place where the body had become lodged in the reeds/branches. And that's the only reason why/how he found the body.

As I and others have repeatedly told you - and as science shows with extremely, extremely high confidence levels (to the point of practical certainty) - if this guy seriously thinks he has "supernatural powers", to the point where he styles himself as such, then he is either a charlatan or he has some form of mental health disorder. There's no third possibility.

'Supernatural' is YOUR word, not his. Calling something by a fantastic epithet does not make that something so. You might call Mr. Rothwell's 'gift' a 'fantasmagorical unicorn-detector' but it doesn't make it so.

 

[Vixen]

You have quite some "cause and effect" problem going on here, don't you?

If your thinking is sufficiently credulous and unscientific for you to believe that 1) this man used supernatural abilities to locate the body, and 2) supernatural abilities actually exist..... then feel free to labour under that misapprehension. But you're wrong. And, as a slight aside, this might not be the internet forum for you........

No, I am totally impartial here. I am pointing out your lack of logic when on the one hand you say that these people cannot prove they have a 'gift' and in the next breath you say even if they did prove it then they are still either mad or bad.

Where is the logic in that? All it proves is that you are not scientific but have a closed mind.

The guy using his spiritualist powers (he claims) found the body, as he set out to do. What more proof do you need than someone producing the goods where many thousands of others have failed?

 

[Vixen]

They spotted the body by chance, thanks in part to the rise in the water level and the body floating.

By chance. Not magic. Not synchronicity. Not special powers. Just happening to be in the right place at the right time.

Paranormal powers are just pretend.

Chance is just another word for luck, right? So it is all right to be guided by non-existent 'chance' or 'luck' but not by the carefully crafted art of spiritualism? For Mr. Rothwell, this might not be 'paranormal' at all but quite natural to himself.