Materialists......

Using the 1st/3rd person divide in language as evidence for a metaphysical mental/physical duality seems to me the daftest idea yet.

As I have already pointed out, we use first person to refer to physical things “I am 6 foot tall” “I weigh 81 kg”

And we use 3rd person to refer to our minds “My mind is not alert today”. So there is no clear cut duality there.

Furthermore, why wouldn’t there be a 1st/3rd person divide? If there were no metaphysical mind/body duality, would this somehow remove the need for a person to refer to him/herself in any communication?

Perhaps I am misunderstanding the whole thing, but then if it is never actually explained…

I would contend that rather than a dualism in our language there is an inherent monism.

Look at the impossibility of imagining minds without bodies

The greatest poet of all – Dante – couldn’t describe Paradise without physical language.

Look at descriptions of so-called “out of body experiences”, they are full of physical language – “I was ‘floating’ near the ceiling ‘looking’ down on my body”

Look at descriptions of near-death experiences – they are also replete with physical descriptions – “I ‘saw’ a ‘light’ and ‘heard’ ‘voices’ ‘saying’ ‘come’ into the ‘light’”

I doubt anybody could actually justify P1.

But then analytic linguistics is defined as the process that begins by making up the rules and ends by failing to come to a conclusion.

I don't make Metaphysical divide between Mind and Body of it. That's in part why my comments in this thread are kind of off topic. It seems a lot gets lost in arguments like this, not only our apprehension of our selfhood but. as you point out, the dynamic unity of mind and body.

Yes, we use third person when we speak of ourselves objectively and as an object. There is also a first person speaking. Not just an I-me, but an I-I, and this is at bottom of Subjectivity, our apprehension of our selves as being Subject, not merely Object.

We use the word "you" in both a Subjective and Objective sense as well.
I can adress you as an object of my desire or my agenda. I am the subject and you are the object to be changed, manipulated, sold on something, sold something, or sold. But there is also a way in which I shift my focus and let you be the subject. You get to be the center of the experience instead of me. You aren't before me as an object of my actions. You are there as You.

It's hard to communicate this quality in a world where so very often others are means to an end rather than persons. where they are to be labeled and dismissed if they aren't of any use. Many people do go through their lives merely objectifying themselves and others, but nevertheless the quailty of being a subject and relating to others as subjects is what gives us our sense of being more than just an it to be labled and classified.

Let me repeat, I'm not after a Metaphysical position in stating this. I'm not positing Materialism or Idealism or The Elephant's Neutral Monism, or any metaphysical dualism but asking anyone to just agknowledge the Subjective. My complaint with an elimitative materialism is just that it kind of loses something in the translation. What it loses for me isn't a metaphysical substance called mind. it loses "soul," it loses "heart."

You can speak of parts of your body and aspects of your mind in third person, but there's also a first person sense of your selfhood, that is over and behind third person talk.

And let me repeat, that over and behind isn't a metaphysical realm. You are a soul, your body-mind is a soul. Distinct metaphysical substances would muddle the holistic dynamic between mind and body we also affirm.
Pardon me for using the word, "holistic." someone's quack alarm has just gone off, but the term has a real value.
 
Describing cogito ergo sum as an example of an argument begging the question seems problematic to me. A logical fallacy (such as begging the question) is a flaw in the structure of such a deductive argument.

Cogito ergo sum was deemed a priori by Descartes, axiomatic. Perhaps a basis for argument, but not a deductive argument in itself. I don't think (by definition) it can beg the question.
Not really, because begging the question is an informal logical fallacy. A formal argument that begs the question can still be valid.

(1) I think.
(C) I am.

I'm not sure how I can think without being, but wordplay is the diet of philosophy. Or maybe there's a missing premise:

(1) I think.
(2) Thinking creatures are.
(C) I am.

Maybe if we state this without using the verb to be? :D
Cogito ergo sum was not a formal argument, not a syllogism. Read something about Descartes. It was (intended as) an axiom.

Do you think that 2 + 2 = 4 begs the question?
 
Pardon me for using the word, "holistic." someone's quack alarm has just gone off, but the term has a real value.
No quack alarm for me, it pretty accurately describes how I regard my "self", definitely not a dichotomy.
 
Anyhoo, I am off

Let me leave you all with what I regard as some of the more important texts of physicalism/positivism regarding the problems of using analytic linguistics to reason about real world entities.

The first is from the father of physicalism, Rudolf Carnap - "Empiricism, Semantics and Ontology"

For example Carnap here appears to be suggesting that not only are questions about the reality of external entities "pseudo-questions", the questions about the abstract entities (like real numbers) needed to reason about physical things, are also pseudo questions. For example:
Rudolf Carnap said:
On the other hand, the external questions of the reality of physical space and physical time are pseudo-questions. A question like: "Are there (really) space-time points?" is ambiguous. It may be meant as an internal question; then the affirmative answer is, of course, analytic and trivial. Or it may be meant in the external sense: "Shall we introduce such and such forms into our language?"; in this case it is not a theoretical but a practical question, a matter of decision rather than assertion, and hence the proposed formulation would be misleading. Or finally, it may be meant in the following sense: "Are our experiences such that the use of the linguistic forms in question will be expedient and fruitful?" This is a theoretical question of a factual, empirical nature. But it concerns a matter of degree; therefore a formulation in the form "real or not?" would be inadequate.
And he makes clear what acceptance of any kind of entity (abstract or physical) means:
Thus it is clear that the acceptance of a linguistic framework must not be regarded as implying a metaphysical doctrine concerning the reality of the entities in question.
Quine on the other hand seems to be saying that Carnap is taking much too simplistic an approach. Here is his Two Dogmas of Empiricism which is often regarded as the paper that finally buried reductionism (and reductionism is essentially the task Geoff has in establishing the new P1 - ie making positive statements about physical realities from linguistic structures). I will let you get at it for yourself.

I have already cited Mach's Analysis of Sensation often enough - it is easy enough to find on the internet.

From J.S Mills' "Auguste Comte and Positivism" (my underlining)
The fundamental doctrine of a true philosophy, according to M. Comte, and the character by which he defines Positive Philosophy, is the following:—We have no knowledge of anything but Phaenomena; and our knowledge of phaenomena is relative, not absolute. We know not the essence, nor the real mode of production, of any fact, but only its relations to other facts in the way of succession or of similitude. These relations are constant; that is, always the same in the same circumstances. The constant resemblances which link phaenomena together, and the constant sequences which unite them as antecedent and consequent, are termed their laws. The laws of phaenomena are all we know respecting them. Their essential nature, and their ultimate causes, either efficient or final, are unknown and inscrutable to us.

M. Comte claims no originality for this conception of human knowledge. He avows that it has been virtually acted on from the earliest period by all who have made any real contribution to science, and became distinctly present to the minds of speculative men from the time of Bacon, Descartes, and Galileo, whom he regards as collectively the founders of the Positive Philosophy
I think there is a thread here - "Positivism Galileo - Hawking" - again more evidence, if any was required, that Science works implicitly or explicitly within the framework of Positivism, not Materialism (See OP for relevance).

But what I really wanted this for was the argument against the idea that our "everyday" concepts are metaphysically neutral.

Here J.S Mill presents Comte's argument that everyday concepts are in fact influenced heavily by metaphysical philosophy, for example:
In whatever mode, natural or supernatural, we choose to account for the early Monotheism of the Hebrews, there can be no question that its reception by the Gentiles was only rendered possible by the slow preparation which the human mind had undergone from the philosophers.
These are only a few of the fairly substantial issues that could be raised even establishing that there is in fact an inherent dualism in "everyday" language, never mind whether there might be any possible way of reasoning from that point to a metaphysical position.

Good luck to anybody who wishes to do so.

====================
Some bits and bobs I had intended to post at some time:

Broad's definition of libertarian free will might be of interest to some http://www.ditext.com/broad/dil.html - it is the only case I know of that such a definition has been attempted.

I note along the way that John Stuart Mills said:
John Stuart Mills said:
It must be granted that in every syllogism, considered as an argument to prove the conclusion, there is a petitio principii.
System of Logic, Book II, ch. 3, § 2
So that particular argument appears to have been around for a long time. Here is an extract from Hamblin's "Fallacies" about it: http://www.ditext.com/hamblin/7.html
 
UndercoverElephant said:
No, because rather like noses being physical, it's obviously true. Unless you think English isn't split into 1st-person and 3rd-person concepts, even though those terms were invented to describe the structure of language.

Aren't you forgetting the 2nd person ? Or do you include it in the 3rd person ?

UndercoverElephant said:
One of them is that the zombie argument doesn't work because it's inconceivable that something physically identical to a human but lacking a mind would actually behave like something physically identical to a human and possessing a mind.

Only if you assume that the mind has causal power, which you don't seem sure of.

Ironic, that coming from someone who apparently believes that microtubules cause consciousness via quantum woo even after that explanation has been cast into serious doubt and that 1 - 1 = 0 in a screwy mathematics where 0 = infinity is the best explanation for neutral monism.

Ouch.


By the way, Geoff, are you going to answer my previous points, or are you ignoring me, again ?
 
Especially since you appear even incapable of reading his definition of eliminative materialism, so I am not sure why you deem yourself capable of critiquing the whole book.

Hmmmm. Well, you already told me to take my logic to my lecturers to be told off, only for it to turn out that I was right and you were wrong. Now, you are telling me I am incapable of crtiquing his book, even though what I posted was stripped from an essay which got a clear 1st. But I'm sure you know more than my lecturers in philosophy of cognitive science. You're an electrician, or something, aren't you?

Again - "Eliminative materialism" does not refer to the doctrine that minds don't exist. Is not. Never was. Never will be.

Erm. You don't know what you are talking about. :)

It does not matter if you keep repeating it until October 2077 when you can put it in 3d holographic font in 1 billion point in a color that has not even been discovered yet.

Every time you or anybody else tries to claim that eliminative materialism does not attempt to eliminate "minds" then you or they will be corrected.

What you appear to be suggesting is that if you keep uttering this self evident falsehood long enough so that nobody can be bothered pointing out your obvious mistake then you will be right.

Argumentum ad nauseum?

I will continue correcting your mistakes until October.

Why don't you try justifying your assertion with evidence better than Wikipedia (which had Quine as a physicalist last time I looked).

Robin, I am not lifegazer. I didn't make this stuff up. I didn't just read a wikipedia article. I have spent the last two years studying this subject. I am not going to submit to arguments from authority, especially not from a person who has already tried that once, and ended up being proven wrong by another person on this board.
 
Every time you or anybody else tries to claim that eliminative materialism does not attempt to eliminate "minds" then you or they will be corrected.
That is perfectly acceptable. Please, though, wait until someone actually says that. Note that you have "minds" in quotes; there is good reason for that. Eliminative materialism is not denying the public and private events that have led others to invent the term "mind", and to endow it with all sorts of magical qualities.

Refusing to agree to the fictional crap is not the same as denying the private behavior. "Mind" is a complex concept; it has had centuries to gather baggage. It is a reasonable thing to jettison the useless baggage; it is simply annoying to then have you claim that even the real stuff has been denied. It is as if, when we refuse to agree that the streets here are paved with gold, that you accuse us of denying that America exists at all. It is either ignorant or dishonest. Either you do not understand the eliminative materialists, or you do and simply choose to misrepresent them. Reading the Stimpy thread, I don't know which it is...but I can see you have been at it a while.
 
Aren't you forgetting the 2nd person ? Or do you include it in the 3rd person ?

Yes, 2nd person is like 3rd person.

Only if you assume that the mind has causal power, which you don't seem sure of.

Oh, I am sure of it. Others aren't sure.

By the way, Geoff, are you going to answer my previous points, or are you ignoring me, again ?

I'm sort of ignoring you again. Your posts aren't quite as irrelevant as articulett's are, but.....
 
Either you do not understand the eliminative materialists, or you do and simply choose to misrepresent them. Reading the Stimpy thread, I don't know which it is...but I can see you have been at it a while.

I have been making the same arguments for years, quite consistently. This thread is the closest this board has come to understanding them.

However, at 3000 posts, I think it really is time to call it a day.....

undercoverlogo.jpg
 
Bush said:
Cogito ergo sum was not a formal argument, not a syllogism. Read something about Descartes. It was (intended as) an axiom.
Axioms don't usually contain "therefore." But I'll grant you that Descartes was probably not trying to present a formal argument.

Do you think that 2 + 2 = 4 begs the question?
What question? I can take it as a definition, or I can derive it from simpler math. Either way, it's not a formal argument.

~~ Paul
 
Geoff said:
However, at 3000 posts, I think it really is time to call it a day.....
Don't do that! Or start a new thread to explain why Chris's thought experiment refutes epiphenomenalism, supervenience physicalism, and reductionist materialism.

~~ Paul
 
Oh, I am sure of it. Others aren't sure.

Excellent. Perhaps you can elucidate exactly how the mind interracts with the brain, then.

I'm sort of ignoring you again. Your posts aren't quite as irrelevant as articulett's are, but.....

... but I'm enough of a thorn in your side so as to be less painful if ignored, rather than adressed. Got it.
 
I have been making the same arguments for years, quite consistently. This thread is the closest this board has come to understanding them.
I wasn't speaking of other people understanding you. I was speaking of your understanding of them. And yes, you have been making the same arguments for years, quite consistently. Utterly independent of what others said to you, you attributed the same positions to them. A veritable strawman assembly line...
However, at 3000 posts, I think it really is time to call it a day.....
A mere 3 posts after
I will continue correcting your mistakes until October.
 
Excellent. Perhaps you can elucidate exactly how the mind interracts with the brain, then.
That's the challenge for an interactive dualist; the answer is 'god did it'.

Is there something in there you don't actually understand?
 
Don't do that! Or start a new thread to explain why Chris's thought experiment refutes epiphenomenalism, supervenience physicalism, and reductionist materialism.

~~ Paul

OK, since it was a special request...... :D

But not till later this evening. I've just bought a Wittgenstein biography and I'd like to get into it this afternoon.
 
Cogito ergo sum was not a formal argument, not a syllogism. Read something about Descartes. It was (intended as) an axiom.

Do you think that 2 + 2 = 4 begs the question?
Axioms don't usually contain "therefore." But I'll grant you that Descartes was probably not trying to present a formal argument.

What question? I can take it as a definition, or I can derive it from simpler math. Either way, it's not a formal argument.
Good. We agree, then, that neither cogito ergo sum nor 2 + 2 = 4 constitute formal arguments and - by definition - can not beg the question.
 
Bush said:
Good. We agree, then, that neither cogito ergo sum nor 2 + 2 = 4 constitute formal arguments and - by definition - can not beg the question.
Begging the question is an informal logical fallacy, so it can show up anywhere. What the heck was Descartes trying to say if not:

(1) I think
(C) I am.

In particular, could he have said "I am, therefore I think"? I don't think so.

More chit-chat on this:

http://dangerousidea.blogspot.com/2006/06/i-think-therefore-i-am.html

~~ Paul
 

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