Loose Change - Part IV

[Brainster]

Could be, depends on how much hands-on dylan is there. If he was responsible for making johndoex and jennabell mods then he would be a fool not to know what was coming. OTOH, if Roxdog made them mods, then either he didn't know or could play the innocent.

Either way, I'm done with him. At least until LC:FE comes out sometime...

I still wonder if Mr. Avery mounted this horse thinking it would lead him to "fortune and glory, kid; fortune and glory" and now realizes he's on the back of a bucking bull that won't let him off and would turn on him n a second if he did dismount. If he doesn't feel that way yet, I suspect it won't be long in coming...

Riding the tiger is easy; it's getting off that can be tricky.

 

[Dog Town]

Never mind. I skim to fast at times.The aerospace does not state that. It is Russ Pickering.

 

[gumboot]

I still wonder if Mr. Avery mounted this horse thinking it would lead him to "fortune and glory, kid; fortune and glory" and now realizes he's on the back of a bucking bull that won't let him off and would turn on him n a second if he did dismount. If he doesn't feel that way yet, I suspect it won't be long in coming...

There's something a little morbidly fascinating about watching the LC forums. I only jumped in recently, but after having one serious line of research spammed with endless messy websites that claim "Operation Northern Vigilance" was an exercise, I pretty much gave up on discussing evidence.

I became a social commentator instead...

The LC story seems to be very much like a micro-version (in tame scale) of Nazism. A doctrine is created. The doctrine is embraced. The doctrine gets out of control. The followers of the doctrine find themselves mired, turn on everyone that dissents (including their own) and establish an absolute facsist dictatorship.

It is an interesting study into human behaviour...

The LC boards are quite literally the web forum equivelant of a Nazi state. In ideology, and in deed. Frankly, I'm happy to be cast out whilst telling them this. Better that than remaining under their rules.

-Andrew

P.S. Besides, if I want a fight, I'll just go post in one of the Politics Threads here...

 

[T.A.M.]

I noticed that JFK is still showing as an Admin, so even though he reisgned in public, he has posted 3 times afterward, and his avatar still shows "Administrator"

Just a note.

 

[MarkyX]

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-2967276362246845611&q=obsession

It's back up.

 

[Regnad Kcin]

the skeptics forum is no longer.

we arent catering to trolls, shills, or general havoc wreakers...

Matthew 7:5 "You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your friend's eye."

 

[WildCat]

The LC boards are quite literally the web forum equivelant of a Nazi state. In ideology, and in deed. Frankly, I'm happy to be cast out whilst telling them this. Better that than remaining under their rules.

I love hdogs response to your last post:

These owners of this board pay the bills and make the rules, get it?

Moron.

Uh, no moron.. it's an InvisionFree board... get it? Free.

 

[kevin]

Sure, but architects typically have a significant input on the final design.

Not on the structural components that hold their design together. The plans have to be stamped by a structural engineer. The architect will work with the engineers, but the engineer is the one that ensure that building will stand.
eta: more importantly the structural engineer is the one that bears responsibility. Check who lost their license in the Hyatt Regency skywalk collapse in Kansas City. It wasn't the architect.

My remark on the design is that designing for a (load * safety factor) based on an expected approach speed of a 707 (200-300 knots) requires roughly One Fourth of the strength (well, ability to absorb the impact load and recover) of a design for a bit over twice the speed. The (higher impact spec * safety factor) would tend to increase material and cost siginficantly.

Your assuming the design was done strictly to handle the impact of the aircraft and failing to take into account there may have been other, more likely events, that they did design for that made the building able to take a full on impact. It could very well be that:
(higher impact spec * safety factor) < (high wind load spec * safety factor)

The wind loads they designed for were higher than needed. Although wind load is different than a (comparatively) point impact of a plane, beefing up the design for higher wind loads would also increase the ability of the building to absorb the impact of a plane. Furthermore, the wtc design was to transfer as little load to the core as possible, meaning the outer surface had to take much more load than a typical building, again beefing up that suppport system (and reducing the interior system, opening up more rentable space.)

Remember this building did take an impact from a 500 mph 767 and stay standing. The 3 page summary claimed it could take a 600 mph 707 strike and remain standing. I see no reason to doubt this.

 

[Joytown]

Welp .. i it appears I've been banned from the LC boards too.

I think what happened is that a lot of news agencies are picking up their story and they are starting to see an influx of new readers driven there. I think they just wanted to ban all the opposing points of view and get rid of that pesky skeptics forum so they didn't have to explain all the inconvenient facts that didn't jibe with their "truth".

Should be interesting though, since they don't have us to actually fact check for them. Wait til the MSM realizes that they're a bunch of frauds who do little to no poor research, rely on authoritative statements from "scientists" far outside their own discipline, and who have absolutely no plausible alternatives for the events of 9/11.

Asking questions, my butt.

 

[gumboot]

I love hdogs response to your last post:

Uh, no moron.. it's an InvisionFree board... get it? Free.

I find their "whoever owns the place makes the rules" line of thought laughable.

A company that owns a carpark building can just randomly tow away any cars from the building that they don't like the colour of.

But they should expect the owners of those cars to make some pretty strong comments in response...

-Andrew

 

[Brainster]

I love this part of the explanation for closing the Skeptic's Forum:

There is a difference between someone who is willing to consider the big picture and how all the clues fit together and someone who can't bring themselves to entertain the idea that the world is more complicated than prime time television allows.

Heh, yeah, the world is much more complicated than prime time television; why, it's as complicated as major motion pictures like Capricorn One, Three Days of the Condor, and JFK.

 

[rwguinn]

Sure, but architects typically have a significant input on the final design.

A decade or so ago, I served with a few Navy Civil Engineers, reservists, who worked in building construction in their civilian jobs. It's been a few years since I spoke with any of them.

My remark on the design is that designing for a (load * safety factor) based on an expected approach speed of a 707 (200-300 knots) requires roughly One Fourth of the strength (well, ability to absorb the impact load and recover) of a design for a bit over twice the speed. The (higher impact spec * safety factor) would tend to increase material and cost siginficantly.

<<<snipped saftey factor stuff--rwg>>>
DR

Archetects may have a say, but structural engineers have to determine if it is safe. They are the ones whose name and stamp are on the final drawings and inspection documents.
also:
Under what circumstances would any civialian aircraft be doing much more than 250-300kt at 1300 feet AGL? Even with the altimeter really screwed up, generally one would reach 500+kt only at altitude--you use up a lot of energy climbing, thus lower airspeed, and who in their right mind descends at high speed?

 

[njslim]

19 "decontamination" procedure seen at WTC with hi-pressure water spraying.

People ferried across the Hudson to Liberty State Park in Jersey City were
"Decon" by various FD Haz Mat squads (Newark, Jersey City, Nutley). Over
5,000 people were treated here. One of my buddies on the scene told of
one well endowded woman stripping down for the decon (being washed
down with water from fire hose) - pity didn't get any pictures

 

[60hzxtl]

19 "decontamination" procedure seen at WTC with hi-pressure water spraying.

People ferried across the Hudson to Liberty State Park in Jersey City were
"Decon" by various FD Haz Mat squads (Newark, Jersey City, Nutley). Over
5,000 people were treated here. One of my buddies on the scene told of
one well endowded woman stripping down for the decon (being washed
down with water from fire hose) - pity didn't get any pictures

No doubt - but the implication of the video is that it was because of Nuclear contamination, not just demo crud.

 

[Regnad Kcin]

...I personally find many (but not all skeptics) very arrogant, intellectual "jocks".

Clever. Of course, as the great jock Dizzy Dean once said, "It ain't braggin' if you can back it up."

You know that virtually every post in the Loose Change thread over at JREF is about self-congradulations and being "1-up"? They are also really blind to it. Reflective thinking doesnt seem to come easy to them.

Spare me the diagnosis, doc. How can someone, or for that matter many people, be "blind" to something you have created out of your imagination?

The thousands upon thousands of posts created here on this topic contain a high level of thoughtful, analytical content. (Certainly much more than this silly little so-called "conspiracy" deserves.) Nevertheless, this is an open, lightly-moderated forum, so there's always going to be some content that some find foolish or ill-advised. Nevertheless, you want to play sanctimonious? Fine. I'll give you something to feel warm & cuddly about:

How dare you, in the midst of a forum (LC) created and populated by liars and simpletons, have anything but the mildest criticism for certain JREF posters? This forum, with its even-handed and fair moderation, is one of the preeminent sites for considered analysis on a wide variety of issues. It has no agenda nor cause, other than the desire to promote and apply critical thinking to all manner of topics.

Quite a few advocates of certain or all aspects of these alternate 9/11 conspiracy theories have come here, hoping to play in the big leagues. They quickly learned that their incomplete, flawed, and puerile musings can't and won't cut it.

Middle-eastern anarchists at the direction of Osama bin Laden carried out a religious-inspired plot to do harm to places and people they consider enemies. That's it. You and others like you can stamp your feet and cry to mama 'til the end of time, and it won't change that simple fact. And whining about the big, bad JREFers who've been around and around and around with "Loose Change" and other inanity is simply unseemly. Best to stop.

A Moderator / Admin is a very important position on a forum - I have been one on a board for 5 years. To cut off an entire area of the forum without even discussing it is, at the very least, incredibly impolite. There is always a big group of lurkers on any forum - for many lurkers, fora are very important to them - they follow debates closely, the actions of Mods and Admins are seen as very important examples of the Forum "culture". I believe in what Deming said "Drive out fear!" - You know I feel a little right now? A little "Hey they might ban me too..."

Welcome to the lie that is the "truth."

 

[mrfreeze]

I actually had a couple interesting pms from Searcher, let me see if he will give permission for me to post them.

 

[gumboot]

Heh, yeah, the world is much more complicated than prime time television; why, it's as complicated as major motion pictures like Capricorn One, Three Days of the Condor, and JFK.

I remember when I first started studying cinematography at film school, the first lesson was on "Black Box Theory".

Basically, it's the theory by which all electronic media devices work. It is a very simple theory:

INPUT SIGNAL = X
BLACK BOX CONVERTS X TO Y
OUTPUT SIGNAL = Y

That's really all there is to understanding how televisions, cd players, dvd players, cameras, etc... work.

For example a film camera:

Input = light
1st Black Box (lens) converts light to focused light
Output = focused light

Input = focused light
2nd Black Box (gate) converts focused light to image on celluloid
Output = image on celluloid

Or a video camera:

Input = light
1st Black Box (lens) converts light to focused light
Output = focused light

input = focused light
2nd Black Box (CCD) converts focused light to electrical pulse
output = electrical pulse

input = electrical pulse
3rd Black Box (recorder) converts electrical pulse to magnetic pattern on tape
output = magnetic pattern on tape

And so on...

What I learnt from this is life isn't complicated at all. Sure, it APPEARS complicated. But only because it's made up of a lot of componants. The individual componants can be understood in very simple terms. Once you understand all these simple individual componants, suddenly the overall system becomes very simple (just as a video camera becomes simple once you understand it's just three black boxes).

Of course there's always more details to be learned - there's aperture size and focal point and shutter speed and CDD size and a myriad of other factors. But these aren't necessary to understand how the overall system works.

Life is the same. It's very easy to understand the collision of an airliner with a building if you first understand the various componants. They can be understood very simply. Of course, you can take a more indepth look at all the details, and get a much more precise understand of it - such as by being a Structural Engineer and creating a computer simulation, but this will simply add detail to the more simple overall structure of the event.

Now, I'm not a Structural Engineer, so I don't bother with those details - half of them are beyond my understanding anyway. I can tell from looking at the simple overview that it all makes sense.

In contrast the CTers ignore the overview, and instead go straight for the details - the tiny bits and pieces that they lack the expertise to understand.

And the reason they obsess over them is because the "big picture" doesn't hold any water. Compare:

Al Qaeda, a fanatical religious terrorist organisation, executed a plan in which nineteen members took advantage of western freedoms to hijack four commercial airliners and crash them into buildings in the USA as a demonstration of their hatred of the west.

AND

The United States government, working as a front for a broader global network of powerful individuals who control a multitude of corporates and national governments, staged an attack on their own nation in two elements.

THE EXECUTION
Pre-planted explosives were used to destroy a number of buildings in New York City, whilst a military drone weapon was fired into the Pentagon building. This stage of the operation was carried out by the USSS, DoD, CIA, and a private demolition company.

THE DECEPTION
Simultaneously, advanced technologies were exploited to fool the world population into believing the attack had been carried out by terrorists who hijacked commercial airliners. These technologies included, but were not limited to; voice morphing, holographic projection, real time insertion of computer imagery into broadcast images, mind control, and automated flight control.
An elaborate ruse involving distorted timelines, misdirected orders, and military exercises ensured a scenario of chaos on the day of the attack to explain the government's failure to prevent the attack.
This stage of the operation was carried out by a combination of dozens of government organisations at both the Federal and State level.

The purpose of these attacks was to enable the government to crush civil liberties and impose a totalitarian regime to use as a launching pad from which to conquer the entire world. To accomodate this early "advance" forces were deployed to Afghanistan and Iraq. Artificial generation of instability in these nations has enabled the establishment of permanent military bases from which to launch the future more widespread invasion of further territories.

Now. Which of these two above "overview" summaries records higher on the BS meter?

-Andrew

EDIT. To fix bad writing.

 

[gumboot]

Does anyone know the website of the nutball who does the super-enlargment of blemishes in WTC photos to prove there are alien space ships with reptilian pilots?

My flatmate simply refuses to believe anyone proposes such an explanation. She thinks I made it up.

-Andrew

 

[mrfreeze]

Can someone do me a favor and let "Painter" know that I got suspended out of nowhere and without warning, so I won't be able to reply to him until the 10th?

 

[MarkyX]

Just got this in the mail!

There are actual photos of the vault from the outside and the INSIDE ~ showing the gold and silver that was recovered. Also, the people who were there (taking the photos and doing the recovery work) say that although the NY Post reported that the goods were removed in a day, it actually took a week, but the police thought that was the best advertising they could get so they didn't correct them

http://www.pbs.org/americarebuilds/engineering/engineering_property_01.html

Nova Scotia Bank Vault

RICH GARLOCK: Some currency vaults owned by Citbank and Chase were badly damaged or burned in the fires that raged for 20 hours after the attack. The Nova Scotia bank vault, however, built inside the old Hudson-Manhattan terminal under WTC 4, was perfectly intact, albeit wet. FEMA's Miami Task Force marked the vault as searched on the 13th of September. We didn't go in to retrieve the metals until late October when we were able to clear a truck ramp with access to the area below WTC 7.

http://www.pbs.org/americarebuilds/engineering/engineering_property_02.html

RICH GARLOCK: The vault was huge — two levels, 3,000 square feet each. When they opened the door, I realized why it was so big: there was a lot of gold and silver. The silver bars were like large loaves of bread, only they weighed about 70 pounds. The gold was smaller, but also very heavy, about 28 pounds each. It was around Halloween and I joked that I was going to come dressed as a Brinks guard. The team did a test run with the Brinks truck to make sure that it had the clearance, driving it up and then back out. The next morning the New York Post reported the vault had been emptied. In fact, it took a week to remove. The police said, "Hey, we couldn't have better publicity."