Loose Change - Part III

[CptColumbo]

Can a jet fuel / hydrocarbon fire collapse a steel structure?

Check out this rigorously scientific experiment proving it can't:

tinyurl.com/no9sl



Note: It's a LOT easier to get banned over there than at the Loosers' forum...

How about a test that takes into account structural damage caused by a large commercial jet, the potential energy of the building, carpet burning, office furniture burning, any flamable material commonly found in an office building (cleaning supplies like paint thinner or lighter fluid) burning, the seats and carpet from the plane burning, people burning, and the jet fuel burning?

You can't take just one or two elements of the collapse of the WTC. You have to take into account all the variables, especially since this is an unpresidented event.

 

[twinstead]

How about a test that takes into account structural damage caused by a large commercial jet, the potential energy of the building, carpet burning, office furniture burning, any flamable material commonly found in an office building (cleaning supplies like paint thinner or lighter fluid) burning, the seats and carpet from the plane burning, people burning, and the jet fuel burning?

You can't take just one or two elements of the collapse of the WTC. You have to take into account all the variables, especially since this is an unpresidented event.

Yea, he at least should have blasted a hole through the chicken wire with a shotgun or something to simulate the airliner crashes.

It's funny to me that in the discussion he uses the time-honored CT argument that he is aware the experiment is not perfect, but he is just asking questions and maybe it will lead to better experiments in the future.

Weird folks these 911 'truthers'. Weird folks.

 

[Stellafane]

I think that is worthy of a caption competition.

So Chuck...what's it like to...you know, "be" with a real woman???

 

[MikeW]

real pilots have no problem with Hani Hanjours ability to steer a 757 into an 80 ft tall X 1000 ft wide building. Only the posers seem to have a problem with this(Nila Sagadevan most notably) for some reason.

On that topic, I've a new contribution out today from Giulio Bernacchia, basically saying that Hanjour didn't need Top Gun-type skills to do what he did. Bernacchia's qualifications:

I’ve been a pilot for the past 27 years, first in the Italian Air Force, and then as a check Captain for an airline.

I have a good experience as a simulator instructor and examiner, (as a matter of fact one of my jobs was to train people with very basic experience…), and I flew NATO AWACS planes as an Aircraft Commander (air refueling qualified) and maritime patrol airplanes very low over water.

So, maybe immodestly, I think I can enter the 9-11 arena...

His thoughts are at the top of the http://www.911myths.com/html/other_contributions.html page, if you're interested. (Apologies for plugging my own site, but I think this guy is qualified enough for it to be relevant.)

 

[Belz...]

How about a test that takes into account structural damage caused by a large commercial jet, the potential energy of the building, carpet burning, office furniture burning, any flamable material commonly found in an office building (cleaning supplies like paint thinner or lighter fluid) burning, the seats and carpet from the plane burning, people burning, and the jet fuel burning?

You can't take just one or two elements of the collapse of the WTC. You have to take into account all the variables, especially since this is an unpresidented event.

Not to forget the huge scale difference.

 

[realitybites]

Quick aside back to JohnDoe.

His LC profile indicates that, since joining the forum on May 18th, he's averaged about 30 posts per day. Assuming the guy sleeps a regular 8 hours every night, that comes out to about 2 posts per hour.

Every day.

Since mid-May.

.... How's that possible?

edit: For a commercial pilot I mean.
edit#2: I'm sure it's quite easy for someone who doesn't get out much.
edit#3: And how quickly to hemorroids develop if one's sitting in front of the computer that much.

 

[kookbreaker]

Quick aside back to JohnDoe.

His LC profile indicates that, since joining the forum on May 18th, he's averaged about 30 posts per day. Assuming the guy sleeps a regular 8 hours every night, that comes out to about 2 posts per hour.

Every day.

Since mid-May.

.... How's that possible?

edit: For a commercial pilot I mean.
edit#2: I'm sure it's quite easy for someone who doesn't get out much.

Well, MS Flight Simulator does have a pause key, yes?

 

[DavidJames]

Quick aside back to JohnDoe.

His LC profile indicates that, since joining the forum on May 18th, he's averaged about 30 posts per day. Assuming the guy sleeps a regular 8 hours every night, that comes out to about 2 posts per hour.

Every day.

Since mid-May.

.... How's that possible?

edit: For a commercial pilot I mean.
edit#2: I'm sure it's quite easy for someone who doesn't get out much.
edit#3: And how quickly to hemorroids develop if one's sitting in front of the computer that much.

Actually in the past few days he's up over 100 (easily). I pointed that out and the resulting back and forth between him, jenabell and myself illustrated quite clearly their poor research and lack of critical thinking.

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=7553&st=60

The fun begins on page 3 about 1/2 way down (I used the same name there).

 

[apathoid]

On that topic, I've a new contribution out today from Giulio Bernacchia, basically saying that Hanjour didn't need Top Gun-type skills to do what he did. Bernacchia's qualifications:

Outstanding! Its about time someone who actually flies for a living weighed in on the matter...

Most people who have been exposed only to the official storyline have never been on the flight deck of an airliner at altitude and looked at the outside world; if they had, they would realize the absurdity of this kind of reasoning.

Maybe that’s what happened to mr. Sagadevan: he was admitted into a flight
deck of an airliner in flight, looked at the outside world, and suddenly had
the inspiration: he wrote his article

I guess I'm not the only one who thinks Mr. Sagadevan is a fraud...

Thanks for the link Mike and great site!

 

[Belz...]

Actually in the past few days he's up over 100 (easily). I pointed that out and the resulting back and forth between him, jenabell and myself illustrated quite clearly their poor research and lack of critical thinking.

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=7553&st=60

The fun begins on page 3 about 1/2 way down (I used the same name there).

This was nice:

I'm trying to show the difference between someone who does research and someone who just makes stuff up. It doesn't take long to do research. But you took the easy way out, you looked at my claim and clicked on a link and responded. You didn't correctly read my claim. You didn't check to see if your data matched up with the claim. You didn't get your hands dirty looking at the actual data. Effectively, you looked at the picture and accepted what you saw. That's the difference John. CTers take the easy way out and stop looking when they find the answer they want.

I have a job which requires me to provide supporting documentation for every claim I make. I can't produce a presentation to executives without doing the due diligence to substantiate my words. Words mean something John.

 

[Belz...]

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=7553&st=60

The fun begins on page 3 about 1/2 way down (I used the same name there).

And when you finally teach them how to use their forum properly, they answer:

I dont know whether to feel sorry for this guy.. or be flattered...lol

Who's got a hive mentality, now ?

 

[60hzxtl]

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=7656

With any luck he will meet up with Dylan and company early in the day
(9/11/2006) , as they did last year. That way, they'll be in the hoosegow, waiting for a desk appearance ticket, or getting stitches in the same ER.

Then the memorial for 9/11 will proceed with dignity.

 

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Thanks Gravy.

Found it on the S911T website, here

The parts relating to Mormon scripture & doctrine are on pp. 157-164 (of a 190-page PPT file. Yes, his PPT presentation is one hundred ninety pages long).

Sword_of_Truth: any thoughts on Jones' interpretation? To my untrained eye, it looks like he's using the same tools of the trade he uses as a CT: cherry-picking bits of scripture to confirm the conclusions he's already arrived at.

Well for one thing, this is an example of Jones talking up his mormonism. My guess is that this was originally presented to a majority mormon audience.

The "secret combination" stuff is a very real part of mormon doctrine. Like most of christianity we believe that the world is going to go down the crapper just before Jesus arrives to clean the mess up. This includes global takeover attempts by one or more factions that are up to no good. Generally, mormons don't dwell on this aspect of our faith with the intensity that the protestants do with things like the "Left Behind" videos and books.

Jones's take on the "secret combinations" seems unusual for members of our faith.

Ezra Taft Benson (Secretary of Agriculture under Eisenhower before becoming president of the church) stated that this secret combination prophesied in the scriptures was international communism. He was joined in this assesment and in condemnation of the United Nations by fellow high-ranking mormon, J. Rueben Clark (who also served as Undersecretary of State and US Ambassador to Mexico). Mormon endtime prophecies also speak of a final war against Isreal in wich she will have few if any friends or allies much like the rest of christianity. These days, the leaders of the church are reluctant to identify who and what this secret combination.

Whacky conspiracy theories in the US (and to a lesser extent, Canada) have traditionally come from the right. 9-11 conspiracism is different in that it's probably the first equal opportunity looney bin. The actual card carrying communists, few of them there may be, are in full support of the 9-11 theories. Furthermore the 9-11 "truth" movement is the most anti-isreal of the conspiracy nuts and probably would have been without the involvement of the stormfront.org pinheads. According to http://www.geocities.com/debunking911/ the only people who have reviewed and passed Jones's original paper is a marxist website.

This is mostly circumstantial and I can't really know what's going on inside Jones's head. But turning against the most anti-UN administration in recent memory, joining up with the commies and the anti-semites just goes totally against the grain for someone who claims to be a conservative mormon.

I have no evidence, just my gut instinct and personal knowledge of mormon culture. So take it all with a grain of salt.

 

[rikzilla]

Well for one thing, this is an example of Jones talking up his mormonism. My guess is that this was originally presented to a majority mormon audience.

The "secret combination" stuff is a very real part of mormon doctrine. Like most of christianity we believe that the world is going to go down the crapper just before Jesus arrives to clean the mess up. This includes global takeover attempts by one or more factions that are up to no good. Generally, mormons don't dwell on this aspect of our faith with the intensity that the protestants do with things like the "Left Behind" videos and books.

Jones's take on the "secret combinations" seems unusual for members of our faith.

Ezra Taft Benson (Secretary of Agriculture under Eisenhower before becoming president of the church) stated that this secret combination prophesied in the scriptures was international communism. He was joined in this assesment and in condemnation of the United Nations by fellow high-ranking mormon, J. Rueben Clark (who also served as Undersecretary of State and US Ambassador to Mexico). Mormon endtime prophecies also speak of a final war against Isreal in wich she will have few if any friends or allies much like the rest of christianity. These days, the leaders of the church are reluctant to identify who and what this secret combination.

Whacky conspiracy theories in the US (and to a lesser extent, Canada) have traditionally come from the right. 9-11 conspiracism is different in that it's probably the first equal opportunity looney bin. The actual card carrying communists, few of them there may be, are in full support of the 9-11 theories. Furthermore the 9-11 "truth" movement is the most anti-isreal of the conspiracy nuts and probably would have been without the involvement of the stormfront.org pinheads. According to http://www.geocities.com/debunking911/ the only people who have reviewed and passed Jones's original paper is a marxist website.

This is mostly circumstantial and I can't really know what's going on inside Jones's head. But turning against the most anti-UN administration in recent memory, joining up with the commies and the anti-semites just goes totally against the grain for someone who claims to be a conservative mormon.

I have no evidence, just my gut instinct and personal knowledge of mormon culture. So take it all with a grain of salt.

In my own experience of "Mormon culture" I'd have to say I'm not surprised that being a part of this cult may have initially attracted Jones to identify with the CT cult.

I'm very sorry SOT if I offend you by refering to the Mormons as a cult but it is above all an accurate description. You, OTOH, I find to be a rational and intelligent person.

Cults have been interpreting an "end time prophecy" of some sort for the last 2,000 years if not longer. Other than the fact that I'm sure there will actually be an "end time" for the human race; the "prophecies" continue to bloom and fade like weeds without ever coming close to being true.

Anyway, sorry for the derail...but to me myths are myths...CT or religion...it's all the same to me.

-z

 

[bob_kark]

Jones' retarded reply:





Jasa,

The answers to nearly all your questions are contained in my peer-reviewed and
published paper, available here:

http://www.physics.byu.edu/research/energy/htm7.html

In particular, I discuss the use of superthermite which uses nanoaluminum and is
EXPLOSIVE so that it CAN be controlled and timed with precision. Yes, I have
discussed the matter with two qualified experts. One had not even heard of
thermite and would not comment. The other knew a great deal about thermite and
said that it would indeed work for demolition.

Please read my paper before asking such questions, that is the reasonable thing
to do.

And note that while RDX, HMX, etc. have taggants, thermite does not.

Steven Jones

I found a couple of links for "Super Thermite" which do a fairly good job explaining the effectiveness of the nanometric aluminum powder used:

http://www.intdetsymp.org/detsymp2002/PaperSubmit/FinalManuscript/pdf/Brousseau-193.pdf

http://www.mrs.org/s_mrs/bin.asp?CID=2642&DID=60122&DOC=FILE.PDF

The important point here being that the only difference between thermite and "SOOOOOOOUPER thermite" is the inclusion of nanometric aluminum powder. Unfortunately, this isn't magical "EXPLOSIVE" nanometric aluminum powder, just regluar old (not really that old) nanometric aluminum powder. It effectively increases the burn rate, but does not bestow new "EXPLOSIVE" properties to the thermite.

 

[Brainster]

Loosers in Vanity Fair

Just when you thought Graydon Carter couldn't sink any lower....

Nothing in the online edition yet.

 

[dubfan]

Just when you thought Graydon Carter couldn't sink any lower....

Nothing in the online edition yet.

WHAT THE ****?

VANITY FAIR?

This country has lost its collective mind.

 

[60hzxtl]

Just when you thought Graydon Carter couldn't sink any lower....

Nothing in the online edition yet.

Look at it as an opportunity!

I know this guy Gravy, who wrote a debunking, and caught the kids with their mouths open.

Send Vanity Fair to Gravy's work.

Like they say about tracer bullets - they work both ways.

 

[dubfan]

And once again we see that the cult of Dylan Avery's celebrity is louder than any attempt to put any of the substance of the conspiracy theory in front a community of structural engineers or 757 pilots.

Hey Dylan! How's that presentation to the ASCE coming along?

 

[scissorhands]

Does anyone have a current email address that Dylan uses regularly?
Having seen his heartfelt post on his blog concerning the 7/7 attacks in London I would like to send a message to him.
Obviously it would be in the best possible taste.