Loose Change - Part III

[60hzxtl]

And don't anybody kid themselves; this is going to be a slick production aimed squarely at the young adult market. Dylan's good at this stuff, and he's getting better. Yeah, LC2 is flawed factually, but stylistically it has been an enormous success. I expect the Final Cut to be better than LC2 in that regard.

Evidence please?

 

[R.Mackey]

What I still don't get is how in the world is that engine going to be damaged and not explode the wings that were full of fuel. The first pole impact should have done the trick and even altered the aircraft's course but the wings stayed intact and didn’t blow up until they hit the building. It just doesn't add up.

Some years ago I was privileged to attend a destructive evaluation of a fighter jet engine, for the purpose of testing new damage and remaining life sensors in support of a new military program. Without going into too much detail, the donor engine -- which had thousands of hours of hard usage on it already -- was subjected to every form of punishment we could think of, in a gradual but ultimately total manner. Notches were sawed in turbine blades. Lubricants were contaminated. Bearings were deformed. Finally, large solid objects were force-fed into the intake.

I was astonished at how much abuse the engine withstood. Even when it was finally "broken," it did not splinter apart as the Loosers would insist, but only flamed out, showering little fragments out the tailpipe. Any wing it was attached to would have been safe.

Once again, they neither know what they're talking about, nor can be bothered to speak to anyone who does. Not that I'm surprised.

 

[JamesB]

Someone may have already posted this, but I listened to this interview of Steven Jones, by his cousin Alex Jones, and he discusses those mysterious thermite canisters. Supposedly they are these round devices which are attached to steel beams, and when the thermite reacts it is pushed out through a slot, which allows it to make a cut through steel. He never explains how this makes nice smooth horizontal cuts though. Not to mention the fact that if this were true then hundreds, if not thousands of these strange indestructable devices would then be found attached to steel beams in the wreckage. Not a very discreet way of carrying out a murder.

He also repeats the "Marvin Bush was head of WTC security lie."

http://www.prisonplanet.tv/audio/070606jones.htm

 

[Johnny C.]

Oh Christ.

Chuck sheen is a mod. he just edited one of my posts and added a link to universal seed.

I quickly edited it out

Now we have to deal with links to that garbage on others posts instead of just his.

 

[Brainster]

Is TheQuest starting to get it?

Here's another one of those idiotic threads in LC's Alternative Theories loony bin.

Izzy using CT logic claims that all that has to be done to prove no planes into the WTC is to prove that:

All it takes is one clip, even one frame--of any footage containing a plane found faked that they showed LIVE, is the drop-dead proof of not only was it an Inside Job, but achieved by fraud.

Of course, Izzy does not go on to prove that one frame is faked, leading one to believe that this is either a postulate or that more is to come.

Metric Miler goes on to condemn this speculation:

The planes that hit the towers were real. Its so much easier to use real planes why go through the bother of faking that? Are you nuts?

Im all for the exploration of ideas but really...Thats competely wacko.

He won't last long with that attitude on a CT forum!

TheQuest then stepped in:

How much more wacko than no plane at the Pentagon or Shanksville where debris and holes were also found.

1% more wacko?
5% more wacko?
50% more wacko?

He's right, you know. No planes at the WTC is not that much more wacko than no planes at the Pentagon and Shanksville. Of course, I'd say that's because no planes at the Pentagon and Shanksville is already off the Nutbar-O-Meter. I assume that TheQuest is saying neither is nuts.

 

[rwguinn]

Funny thing is, they expect an airliner to have its wings torn off by a light pole, but if same airliner flies into a reinforced concrete wall they expect nice chunky, clearly identifiable parts of airplane lying around.

Duh.

-Andrew

I recolect thye time a certain major US transportation company wanted to know the feasability of placing accelerometers on their busses so that they would know where and when they hit a deer (telemetry data to a satellite along with GPS data)
When I pointed out to them that the acceleration of the 48000 lb bus at 60 MPH hitting a 1000 lb elk was less than normal braking during operating, they finally gave up...


people just don't get the energy and momentum thing, at all...

 

[tacodaemon]

Here's another one of those idiotic threads in LC's Alternative Theories loony bin.

That reminds me, Dylan sure has gotten ticked off in the past at Holmgren and killtown posting no-planer stuff on his board. It's amazing that there's actually a 9/11 conspiracy theory too nutty for even Dylan Avery to believe it. Then again, if his "researcher" Jason decided it was the truth, Dylan would probably come around quick too.

The last time I read one of those no-planer threads in the Alternative Theories bin, Dylan popped up and posted that WNYW footage that shows the South Tower strike live from a different perspective than the footage that some other channels were carrying. He got that from Eric Salter's criticism of the no-planers, which goes into a lot of detail on Webfairy and her use of that horribly compression-artifacted version of the Jules Naudet footage of the North Tower strike. Salter's another interesting case that shows up in CT circles sometimes -- he uses his legitimate experience in computer videography to debunk Webfairy's ramblings, and yet he's a CTer himself, particularly when it comes to WTC7. Even though he has a reasonable expectation that Webfairy will defer to his videography expertise, apparently he can't bring himself to defer to other people's expertise in firefighting, structural engineering, and so on. This seems to happen a lot with CT types.

 

[tacodaemon]

Oh, and reading this guy's rambling about Rumsfeld-controlled infiltrators on the Loose Change forum, I can't figure out whether he thinks the no-planers are infiltrators out to discredit the movement, or whether he thinks the no-plane theories are right and Rumsfeld's goons are trying to squelch legitimate discussion of them.

EDIT: Oh wait, I didn't even notice he was the same no-planer who started the thread. I'm having a hard time keeping all the LC forumites and their various theories straight.

 

[JamesB]

Oh, and reading this guy's rambling about Rumsfeld-controlled infiltrators on the Loose Change forum, I can't figure out whether he thinks the no-planers are infiltrators out to discredit the movement, or whether he thinks the no-plane theories are right and Rumsfeld's goons are trying to quench legitimate discussion of them.

What, you mean I could be getting paid for this? Where do I send my resume?

 

[tacodaemon]

What, you mean I could be getting paid for this? Where do I send my resume?

Just send your blog URL to the right email addresses and pretty soon it'll be hosted at screwloosechange.defenselink.mil, right down the hall from Rummy's office.

 

[Brainster]

He got that from Eric Salter's criticism of the no-planers, which goes into a lot of detail on Webfairy and her use of that horribly compression-artifacted version of the Jules Naudet footage of the North Tower strike. Salter's another interesting case that shows up in CT circles sometimes -- he uses his legitimate experience in computer videography to debunk Webfairy's ramblings, and yet he's a CTer himself, particularly when it comes to WTC7. Even though he has a reasonable expectation that Webfairy will defer to his videography expertise, apparently he can't bring himself to defer to other people's expertise in firefighting, structural engineering, and so on. This seems to happen a lot with CT types.

Salter got cited in the Salon piece as a debunker, which was a wince-worthy moment in an otherwise pretty good article by Farhad Manjoo.

 

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Someone may have already posted this, but I listened to this interview of Steven Jones, by his cousin Alex Jones,

(My emphasis)

Whoa, hang on a second there. Let's not bone ourselves the way the truthers did before CptColumbo handed thier asses to them on the Chertoff cousins claim.

Do you have a source for this?

Before we delve into this, a word of advice... never challenge a mormon on who his relatives are. Geneaology is the one thing we know better than ANYBODY.

 

[JamesB]

(My emphasis)

Whoa, hang on a second there. Let's not bone ourselves the way the truthers did before CptColumbo handed thier asses to them on the Chertoff cousins claim.

Do you have a source for this?

Before we delve into this, a word of advice... never challenge a mormon on who his relatives are. Geneaology is the one thing we know better than ANYBODY.

I was being sarcastic. I just find it amusing that Michael Chertoff has been mentioned as Benjamin Chertoff's uncle, nephew, brother, cousin or just an unnamed relation. They can never figure out which. I am surprised they haven't said he is Ben's mother-in-law. I saw one article which brought up the fact that Chertoff means "of the devil" in Russian. That is actually true, although I had never made the connection before.

 

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Ah, ok. Sorry if I came across a tad too confrontational about that James.

We do know though that there are two Jones boys who cannot honestly claim that "Mrs. Jones didn't raise any idiots".

I honestly wouldn't have been surprised if it was the same Mrs. Jones.

 

[Dragon]

Momentum and energy

I recolect thye time a certain major US transportation company wanted to know the feasability of placing accelerometers on their busses so that they would know where and when they hit a deer (telemetry data to a satellite along with GPS data)
When I pointed out to them that the acceleration of the 48000 lb bus at 60 MPH hitting a 1000 lb elk was less than normal braking during operating, they finally gave up...


people just don't get the energy and momentum thing, at all...

They don't, do they? I have a clear recollection of being shown a video of a plank of wood being shot with an ordinary wax candle out of a shotgun. Intuitively the candle would have just broken up but that's not what happened at all - it actually punched a hole right through the wood.
(o/t - This was on a course where they also showed us an unsettling picture of what happens when a military rifle is fired at a standard police issue protective vest )

 

[Sword_Of_Truth]

They don't, do they? I have a clear recollection of being shown a video of a plank of wood being shot with an ordinary wax candle out of a shotgun. Intuitively the candle would have just broken up but that's not what happened at all - it actually punched a hole right through the wood.
(o/t - This was on a course where they also showed us an unsettling picture of what happens when a military rifle is fired at a standard police issue protective vest )

And what would have happened had this same test been performed in a vacuum with no air to form a shockwave around the candle?

Either way, this is an example of how the CTs fail to graps the concept of science not always working the way they expect it to. In conspiracist parlance, an agent of the bush administration obviously placed a thermite charge to burn through the wooden plank and set it to detonate at precisely the micro-second before the candle made impact.

 

[Dragon]

And what would have happened had this same test been performed in a vacuum with no air to form a shockwave around the candle?

Don't know, do you?

 

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Don't know, do you?

No, I don't. It would be interesting to find out.

EDIT: Duuuuhhh... I just realized that shockwaves had nothing to do with it. It's the same principle that allows karate masters to break boards. The wooden plank is bearing the impact along its weakest axis while the candle is being driven into the board along its strongest axis. The result would probably be the same with or without atmosphere in the mix.

EDIT 2: I still think it would be interesting to see the demonstration repeated in a vacuum to see if shockwaves have any effect at all.

 

[Shrinker]

I don't think there's a chance in the world that this will be the final cut; Dylan just seems to be using that title frame because he's got it handy. He also used it for the smorgasbord video.

I am reasonably confident that most of the film will be similar to LC2 in structure and content. Dylan may add snippets of that interview with the clock lady or the gal who claimed there was radioactivity eight miles from the Pentagon or the cameraman who says the hole in the Pentagon's outer wall was 16 feet wide, but I doubt he will let them ramble on the way he does in the two interviews. (On the other hand, he showed no ability to edit the interview with the guy at the airfield--it's two minutes long and the only payoff is that Hani Hanjour had average to below average piloting skills).

And don't anybody kid themselves; this is going to be a slick production aimed squarely at the young adult market. Dylan's good at this stuff, and he's getting better. Yeah, LC2 is flawed factually, but stylistically it has been an enormous success. I expect the Final Cut to be better than LC2 in that regard.

I think you're quite right. I was far to hasty in assuming the title card meant this was actually IT. Mind you, for all Avery's supposed smarts, putting that title card on that movie was a fairly dumb PR move. Like I said earlier about some other thing its the kind of move that works fine for viewers already deep into the CT thing, but will just confuse newcomers.

Anyway, is it possible to download these movies into avi or quicktime form? I can only get the useless google video format. Any way to convert it perhaps? I get the feeling some of the comments in those interviews would be quite compelling if taken out of context, so it would be handy to have the original context on record.

 

[Sword_Of_Truth]

And the most accidentally honest appraisal of the truthseeker cult of 2006 is...

It is rough to be an American here because of the British attitude towards the US. I get shouted at regularly because of "Bush". Never voted for the guy and have been a Truther for years. Other than that England is a cool place to be. I find England very receptive to the 9/11 truth movement since they jump onto any kind of American failure/ embarrasment like flies to ****.

...by Buffy the Sheeple Slayer!

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=7364