Loose Change - Part III

[Johnny Pixels]

Lmao. The irony, its painful.

Jenny didnt take this too well. She made a thread about it.

Hey, I'm famous. Well I can't post over at the LC forum because I was suspended until today, but my posting priviledges have been revoked.

So if you're reading this Jenabell

It's an often said thing over there that boxcutters are harmless. So why was this kid crapping his pants when his dad waved one at him? He knew his dad wasn't going to take a slice out of his face. Imagine the fear when a mad man has just hijacked your plane and threatens you with one.

For reference, here's a picture of a girl slashed with a razor blade, a box cutter has more leverage as it has a handle, and so would cut deeper. how would you feel knowing that if someone slashed you with one, you could well lose your eyes?:

 

[Brainster]

Nope, I definately got banned.

Not that it really matters as Johndoe just got MASSIVELY embarassed and humiliated over his "realistic collapse plume" nonsense.

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=7139&st=90

I guess he should have checked with reality before arbitrarily deciding what was realistic.

Yeesh, what a moron. Love that collapse plume that somehow misses the WFC buildings and the Winter Garden. Oh, and this bit:

Verizon didnt get hit which was maybe 10 feet away from WTC 7 damage.

Is typical nonsense. Do these guys know anything?

 

[rikzilla]

Someone needs to go over and thank JohnDoeX for finally destroying the "Fell into it's own footprint" myth once and for all, however...

Well when these idiots are as intellectually dishonest as their hero Dylan I'd sincerely doubt that they'd refrain from using previously debunked "facts". After all, how many objections were raised by non-JREFers when Dylan was caught passing off blog pages as if they were news articles printed by the mainstream press?

No. the "footprint" story will remain...after all...they all "saw" it fall into it's own footprint on the video!! Haven't you done your research!!?? Go now..watch all the films on universalseed.com...keep watching until all doubt fades. Drink the koolaid....DRINK IT!!!

-z

 

[MarkyX]

More and more like a cult everyday.

 

[Brainster]

Couldn't Get On With Ingraham

She decided to debate him herself without allowing any listeners. Although she started out saying that it was easy to just mock the other guys as nuts, her "tough question" was about the guy who spoke in Chicago that lives in a cave.

She even let Fetzer come off as moderate by asking him about previous terrorist attacks. But since a couple of them (the Cole and the embassy bombings in Africa) happened during the Clinton Administration he was happy to admit that they were probably terrorist attacks and not government-sponsored. It would have been much better if she'd asked him questions about 9-11, like what hit the towers, what hit the Pentagon, etc. Or hit him up with questions about the ridiculous other conspiracies he does believe in, like Wellstone being assassinated or Zapruder being part of the JFK plot. Didn't strike me as great show prep.

I can understand it though; there are two theories about how to handle the Truthers. One is scorn, the other is with facts and evidence. I suspect both work with those who are not true believers, and unfortunately, that neither works with those who are.

Easy prediction: Everybody over at 9-11 Blogger will be thrilled.

 

[dubfan]

However, if anyone can get me a volume of concrete for the amount in the building (in cubic feet), I can easily convert it to a good, round figure.

From Greenings paper "ENERGY TRANSFER IN THE WTC COLLAPSE":

Each floor had a layer of lightweight concrete 4 inches (0.1 m) thick.
The net floor area was 2909 m2, giving 290.9 m3 of concrete per floor.
If the density of the WTC concrete was 1500 kg/m3 we have 110  290.9  1500 kg
= 48,000,000 kg of concrete flooring per tower

If I'm not mistaken, using these figures the volume is 290.9m³ per floor * 110 floors = 31999m³ per WTC tower.

 

[Hellbound]

dubfan:

Was it reinforced concrete or regular? (rebar or not)?

 

[dubfan]

dubfan:

Was it reinforced concrete or regular? (rebar or not)?

Don't know.

Greening says "lightweight concrete", but the context of his analysis is the energy required to pulverize the concrete. I don't think he considered the presence or absence of rebar in his analysis.

Ought to be an easy enough thing to find out though, or maybe on of our WTC construction gurus here might know offhand...

Gravy?

 

[azazal]

dubfan:

Was it reinforced concrete or regular? (rebar or not)?

AHHHH not rebar again ahhhhhhh

I thought the floors had mess for support, looking right now..


Found it.

Floor construction typically consisted of 4 inches of lightweight concrete on 1-1/2-inch, 22-gauge non-composite steel deck

Source: Some CTer's wannabe site

 

[Hellbound]

Well, for sake of argument (and to reduce the amount of C-4 needed), let's assume lightweight concrete without rebar (other options are dense concrete or reinforced concrete). Our formula is
P=R³KC
Where P is pounds of TNT, R is the thickness, K is the material factor, and C the tamping factor.
So, let's assume a minimal C-4 needed. We'll use K=.88 for lightweight concrete less than .3 meters thick, C=1.0 assuming charges placed in the center of the floor thickness, and R=2 inches (about .166 feet).

So we get
P=0.166³*0.88*1.0 = 0.004025 lbs. per charge. With C-4's ReF of 1.34, that means 0.003004 lbs. per charge. Not much, but we're asssuming a charge placed every 4 inches (to waste less blast above and below the floor). So, that number is how much C-4 is needed to destroy concrete in a 2 inch radius around the charge. Again, fo rsake of argument, let's assume the radius is cubical, and each of these charges will pulverize 0.0046296 ft³ of concrete.

Now, we have 32,000 cubic meters of concrete, approximately, which gives us 1,130,060 ft³, roughly. Divide that by how much our charges destroy and you get 244,094,522 charges, which equates to 733,260 lbs of C-4, or about 365 tons.

Let's get a bit more reasonable and assume a charge placed every 15 feet in a grid. Our K value now becomes 0.27 for concrete over 2.1 meters. C stays the same, and R is 7.5:
P=7.5³*.27*1.0 = 113.90625 lbs of TNT or 85 lbs. of C-4 per charge (rounded down slightly). Each of these charges will take out a 15' by 15' by 4 inch area of flooring (floor is only 4 inches thick), or 75 cubic feet. So, using our figure of 1,130,060 ft³ of concrete, that gives us 15067 charges, or 1,280,695 lbs. of C-4, or 640 tons. As you increse the charge size, the amount required goes up.

Thanks dub, azazal. Sounds like concrete over the steel, so we can effectively ignore the steel. Actually, you could figure that the steel would add to the destructive force in my second scenario (larger charges) by reflecting some of the blast back into the concrete, But it's only going to be a reduction of 30% to 40% at best.

Oh, and just an aside, my figures for Christophera's reinforced concrete core did NOT include cutting the reinforcement, just the concrete.

 

[MarkyX]

Dylan replied

http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?f...&MyToken=73414456-6e46-4ff8-b8d9-bf10a8d40f36

There we have it people, right there in Public. Dylan refuses to debate with Mark Roberts.

And an image to spread to other Loosers.

 

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Dylan replied

http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?f...&MyToken=73414456-6e46-4ff8-b8d9-bf10a8d40f36

There we have it people, right there in Public. Dylan refuses to debate with Mark Roberts.

And an image to spread to other Loosers.

[qimg]http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/2676/refused6dz.jpg[/qimg]

He's the stereotypical "cowardly bully". He has no problem standing up and spewing venom and insults as long as his posse is behind him, but he fears going anywhere without his homies.

 

[ob986s]

Dylan replied

http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?f...&MyToken=73414456-6e46-4ff8-b8d9-bf10a8d40f36

There we have it people, right there in Public. Dylan refuses to debate with Mark Roberts.

And an image to spread to other Loosers.

[qimg]http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/2676/refused6dz.jpg[/qimg]

I guess I can cancel my trip to NYC for 9-11-06, too bad i was looking forward to the debate

 

[ktesibios]

Thanks Huntsman. I was thinking strictly in terms of cutting steel, since as pretty much everyone save Christophera knows, that's what held the @#$% building up.

Civilian demolition contractors have obvious reasons- economics and safety, to name two off the top of my head, to want to minimize the quantity of explosives set off on a given job, hence the use of things like shaped charges. If you were working on the basis of military practice, those considerations would probably be secondary to achieving the desired destruction, so it seemed worth asking what set of standards you were using in your figuring.

No matter which way you slice it, the absurdity of CTer claims of CD is obvious. And if a layman like myself can see that, they're obvious^2.

 

[Hellbound]

Thanks Huntsman. I was thinking strictly in terms of cutting steel, since as pretty much everyone save Christophera knows, that's what held the @#$% building up.

Civilian demolition contractors have obvious reasons- economics and safety, to name two off the top of my head, to want to minimize the quantity of explosives set off on a given job, hence the use of things like shaped charges. If you were working on the basis of military practice, those considerations would probably be secondary to achieving the desired destruction, so it seemed worth asking what set of standards you were using in your figuring.

No matter which way you slice it, the absurdity of CTer claims of CD is obvious. And if a layman like myself can see that, they're obvious^2.

Well, even in military shaped charges are preferred, and can be improvised in the field. It's easier to carry C-4, though, and make the shaped charges you need, rather than try to carry a variety of pre-shaped charges, any of which may or may not be useful for whatever you find.

Also, much of my training involves breeching, cratering, or clearing, and you want the wide area effect to blow out your path (for breeching or clearing) or to blow out your crater.

I could give some steel-cutting figures, if you're interested. It'd take a bit more research on my part.

 

[JamesB]

Well, even in military shaped charges are preferred, and can be improvised in the field. It's easier to carry C-4, though, and make the shaped charges you need, rather than try to carry a variety of pre-shaped charges, any of which may or may not be useful for whatever you find.

Also, much of my training involves breeching, cratering, or clearing, and you want the wide area effect to blow out your path (for breeching or clearing) or to blow out your crater.

I could give some steel-cutting figures, if you're interested. It'd take a bit more research on my part.

But they didn't use C-4, they used that newfangled explosive nanothermate!

 

[MarkyX]

Just got this in email right now.

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=89557162

Best. Profile. Picture. Ever.

 

[Brainster]

But they didn't use C-4, they used that newfangled explosive nanothermate!

I hear Karl Schwarz is an expert on that stuff.

 

[Stellafane]

...Every CTer is a pedant at heart. They are the teachers, we are the pupils...

I think that's close, but I would describe it as they want to be the heroes, and our role is to be their adoring public, singing their praises. Everything they do leaves me more and more convinced that CT'ers are by and large incomplete and undeveloped personalities who are dissatisfied with their lot in life and are looking for some outlet to provide them with the veneer of relevance and importance. Role-playing games do it for some, but others need a little more connection to "reality" to fulfill their humdrum, uneventful existence. Basically, a CT is a role-playing game on steroids.

 

[Regnad Kcin]

Dylan replied

http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?f...&MyToken=73414456-6e46-4ff8-b8d9-bf10a8d40f36

There we have it people, right there in Public. Dylan refuses to debate with Mark Roberts.

And an image to spread to other Loosers.

[qimg]http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/2676/refused6dz.jpg[/qimg]

Yet, Mr. Avery, wouldn't it be sweet, sweet satisfaction to really stick it to Mr. Roberts, counter all his points, and put him in his place, what with all the evidence at your disposal?

Oh, wait...