Loose Change - Part III

[Blackwell]

Geez - just finished listening to the Fetzer and Colmes clip. Have to take a few deep, calming breaths now.
So Fetzer claims that the passengers wouldn't get away with using an Airfone (apparently, they had one terrorist stationed at each row to keep an eye on each passenger!) but claims that he'd stand up, take his luggage out of the overhead compartment, advance on the terrorist, and proceed to beat him to death with his suitcase? What an absolute jackass.

(Although the mental image of Fetzer with a suitcase brings to mind the old Samsonite commercial, featuring the gorilla throwing around the suitcase...)

 

[Doubt]

Well, even in military shaped charges are preferred, and can be improvised in the field. It's easier to carry C-4, though, and make the shaped charges you need, rather than try to carry a variety of pre-shaped charges, any of which may or may not be useful for whatever you find.

Also, much of my training involves breeching, cratering, or clearing, and you want the wide area effect to blow out your path (for breeching or clearing) or to blow out your crater.

I could give some steel-cutting figures, if you're interested. It'd take a bit more research on my part.

A couple of notes.

The advantage of pre-shaped charges is that you get a glass liner which becomes a penetrator that is right for the amount of explosive you are using. If you make your own, you either have no penetrator or have to make do with what you have. Glass wine bottles are supposed to be good for that since the bottom of the bottle often has the cone shape for the inside of the charge.

If you want to use a shaped charge on steel, standard shaped charges are not the way to go. You want an armor penetrating type of charge that is normally lined with copper instead of glass. But those are normally attached to missiles or tank shells.

Hunstman, you already did the harder math for the breaching charge. Steel cutting math is a bit easier if somebody provides the cross section of the steel to be cut. P = 3/8*A is easier to work out than (R^3)*K*C.

However, the commercial blasting companies use liner shaped charges, so the stuff we have in our 5-34 manuals does not really apply to a real controlled demo. But you would still get numbers that are closer to reality than what the CT’rs BS ideas.

 

[Gravy]

Geez - just finished listening to the Fetzer and Colmes clip. Have to take a few deep, calming breaths now.
So Fetzer claims that the passengers wouldn't get away with using an Airfone (apparently, they had one terrorist stationed at each row to keep an eye on each passenger!) but claims that he'd stand up, take his luggage out of the overhead compartment, advance on the terrorist, and proceed to beat him to death with his suitcase? What an absolute jackass.

(Although the mental image of Fetzer with a suitcase brings to mind the old Samsonite commercial, featuring the gorilla throwing around the suitcase...)

These flaming idjits never seem to remember that the terrorists said they had BOMBS on board, and they had already KILLED people. Goddamn these flaming idjits. Goddamn them. Ah, now I'm wishing I wasn't an atheist.

 

[XXX]

Hey, got a question. Was Mark Bingham the only guy who identified himself using his first and last name on those phone calls? Does anyone know where I can find a tape of the calls or a transcript online?

 

[Sword_Of_Truth]

JohndoeX is an incredibly dense mass of idiocy that has collapsed under the weight of his own cretinism and turned into a giant black hole of stupid from wich no sign of intellect can possibly escape.

I just felt I had to let that out.

 

[pgwenthold]

These flaming idjits never seem to remember that the terrorists said they had BOMBS on board, and they had already KILLED people.

And notice that by the time people realized that these _weren't_ normal hijackings, they DID respond in revolt, overtaking the hijackers.

The irony is, of course, that the morons deny that this happened, too.

 

[DavidJames]

JohndoeX is an incredibly dense mass of idiocy that has collapsed under the weight of his own cretinism and turned into a giant black hole of stupid from wich no sign of intellect can possibly escape.

I just felt I had to let that out.

fun to watch though

 

[Sword_Of_Truth]

fun to watch though

Frustrating if you let yourself get too emotionally involved with it.

Especially if you're debating with someone like J.Doe who has no values. The tinfoil turbans all hate the federal government and all it's agencies yet this guy will openly run into the arms of FEMA for protection when the mean old skeptics bring up things that make him feel bad.

Most tinfoilers when you say "a major government agency screwed up", they will agree with you on that. J.Doe has no consistency.

 

[Brainster]

Hey, got a question. Was Mark Bingham the only guy who identified himself using his first and last name on those phone calls? Does anyone know where I can find a tape of the calls or a transcript online?

The only phone conversation that I know of that was taped was Betty Ong's from Flight 11 (and even that was only part of the conversation); Dylan has a segment from it in the latest version of LC2. Don't forget, the passengers were mostly calling residences that would be unlikely to have phone-recording equipment.

I would suspect that several of the callers identified themselves with first and last names--Todd Beamer to the Verizon supervisor, any of the callers who called 9-11, etc., although of course the point about Bingham was that he said it to his mom. Of course, to most of us that just indicates he was rattled by the events unfolding on Flight 93 and distracted.

Actually now that I think about it, the 9-11 calls were probably also taped, although I don't believe they've been released publicly.

 

[Palimpsest]

P.S http://www.myspace.com/avery_dylan

How sad is it that he only has 2 friends, and (at least) one of them is a JREFer?

 

[XXX]

The only phone conversation that I know of that was taped was Betty Ong's from Flight 11 (and even that was only part of the conversation); Dylan has a segment from it in the latest version of LC2. Don't forget, the passengers were mostly calling residences that would be unlikely to have phone-recording equipment.

I would suspect that several of the callers identified themselves with first and last names--Todd Beamer to the Verizon supervisor, any of the callers who called 9-11, etc., although of course the point about Bingham was that he said it to his mom. Of course, to most of us that just indicates he was rattled by the events unfolding on Flight 93 and distracted.

Actually now that I think about it, the 9-11 calls were probably also taped, although I don't believe they've been released publicly.

Thanks, I've been looking and I can't find them either (no transcript, no tapes). There's one guy, a real moron, who rants about 9/11 from time to time. He's now talking about the "govenrment released tapes from the hijacked planes" and how every tape he heard the person making the call introduced themselves with their first and last names.

Of course, if the tapes have never been released, then he's pulling this out of his ass. Wouldn't be the first time.

 

[Ducky]

I have a feeling that myspace account is a spoof.

I'll ask Delphi.

 

[Skibum]

How sad is it that he only has 2 friends, and (at least) one of them is a JREFer?

That Tom guy seems to end up as everyones friend on myspace.

 

[Brainster]

These flaming idjits never seem to remember that the terrorists said they had BOMBS on board, and they had already KILLED people. Goddamn these flaming idjits. Goddamn them. Ah, now I'm wishing I wasn't an atheist.

Not to mention that all recommendations prior to 9-11 emphasized cooperating with the hijackers so as not to escalate the situation. It was only because Flight 93 was delayed so long that the passengers knew their fate and thus were willing to fight back rather than just sit there and die.

I'm coming to realize that Fetzer's the worst of this lot. He knows how to debate conspiracy theory. The part with him ducking questions about passengers was quite eye-opening; no matter how many times Colmes asked him about the passengers he quickly got onto another topic. He's good at steering the debate in the direction where he's got some cards to play. Yeah, they're all jokers, but usually the hosts aren't equipped to catch his lies about flight manifests and tail numbers and Barbara Olson's counterfeit Lira.

 

[steve s]

Very funny. And I see that Sheen's ex is now "Denise Roberts." Come on over, dahlin'. I'll take good careaya, not like that glue-sniffin', gun-totin', wife-smackin', vaccination-hatin', Chiropracter-goin', houseplant-throwin', sucky sitcom-starrin', Johnson self-picture-takin', 9/11 conspiralatin', gamblin' money-losin', prostitute-addictionated chucksheen.

You forgot the best one: Gay-porn-watchin'.

Steve S.

 

[Mr. Skinny]

Geez - just finished listening to the Fetzer and Colmes clip. Have to take a few deep, calming breaths now.
So Fetzer claims that the passengers wouldn't get away with using an Airfone (apparently, they had one terrorist stationed at each row to keep an eye on each passenger!) but claims that he'd stand up, take his luggage out of the overhead compartment, advance on the terrorist, and proceed to beat him to death with his suitcase? What an absolute jackass.

(Although the mental image of Fetzer with a suitcase brings to mind the old Samsonite commercial, featuring the gorilla throwing around the suitcase...)

I think perhaps you are thinking of Claus Larsen.

ETA: Bolding mine.

 

[XXX]

OK, I'm now very sure that no tapes of those cell phone calls have ever been released, so it's time to take this guy to task for yet another lie.

I did find a small tidbit of info though. Since we have been talking about Fetzer, I have twice heard him say now that the cockpit voice recorder would not have been able to hear the sounds outside the cockpit...

From this link, CBS news...

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/04/12/terror/main1491489.shtml

Despite the detail — and because the cockpit ceiling microphone can pick up sounds from the passenger cabin, particularly if the cockpit door is open — there were multiple interpretations of the final seconds.

 

[JamesB]

OK, I'm now very sure that no tapes of those cell phone calls have ever been released, so it's time to take this guy to task for yet another lie.

I did find a small tidbit of info though. Since we have been talking about Fetzer, I have twice heard him say now that the cockpit voice recorder would not have been able to hear the sounds outside the cockpit...

From this link, CBS news...

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/04/12/terror/main1491489.shtml

Despite the detail — and because the cockpit ceiling microphone can pick up sounds from the passenger cabin, particularly if the cockpit door is open — there were multiple interpretations of the final seconds.

The sounds by the passengers is not on the transcript interestingly enough. I assume if they can be heard, probably not very well through the door. I thought this was a stupid point by Fetzer. Perhaps he noticed when he was in the radio studio, they put you in this special room, because if people are outside screaming and banging on the door, you can hear them.

 

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Very funny. And I see that Sheen's ex is now "Denise Roberts." Come on over, dahlin'. I'll take good careaya, not like that glue-sniffin', gun-totin', wife-smackin', vaccination-hatin', Chiropracter-goin', houseplant-throwin', sucky sitcom-starrin', Johnson self-picture-takin', 9/11 conspiralatin', gamblin' money-losin', prostitute-addictionated chucksheen.

I should point out that I am filling a pair of blank shotgun shells with soap flakes so I can wash my mind out as soon as I'm done typing this post.

It's true that Charlie Sheen has performed an out-of-control demolition on his life and his credibility. But it is also true that people going through divorces will load up thier filings with all manner of accusations not all of wich ultimately turn out to be true. The things we know that he's done are quite sufficient on thier own to effectively impeach this particular witness.

Presumption of guilt on every single accusation to come from what will likely be hollywoods messiest divorce of the decade strikes me as the same kind of thinking as assuming that Silverstien actually meant to demolish WTC7 instead of remove the firefighting/rescue operation from the danger zone around the building.

Now if you'll excuse me, I need to go do something to take my mind off the urge to "pull it" to the special edition "Tammy & The T-Rex" DVD.

 

[Brainster]

OK, I'm now very sure that no tapes of those cell phone calls have ever been released, so it's time to take this guy to task for yet another lie.

I did find a small tidbit of info though. Since we have been talking about Fetzer, I have twice heard him say now that the cockpit voice recorder would not have been able to hear the sounds outside the cockpit...

From this link, CBS news...

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/04/12/terror/main1491489.shtml

Despite the detail — and because the cockpit ceiling microphone can pick up sounds from the passenger cabin, particularly if the cockpit door is open — there were multiple interpretations of the final seconds.

If you read the transcript of the CFR that is included with that article, you'll see that there's no overheard discussion of using the beverage cart as a battering ram, which is what Fetzer claims the CFR revealed. There is discussion in the CBS article:

Then 30 seconds past 9:59 a.m., an enormous crash: metal against metal, glass breaking, plastic cracking. The Sept. 11 Commission theorized passengers used a drink cart to ram the cockpit door. More unintelligible shouting.

So it's just another lie from Fetzer. This guy is shameless.