Loose Change - Part III

[gumboot]

A quick question for the knowledgable...

This is regarding the discovered passport that CTers think is so important and the FBI don't...

Pre Sept 2001, what identification was required to board a domestic flight in the USA? And if a passport was not required, how common was it for people to carry their passport around anyway?

I'm thinking the image of someone off to the airport to go overseas, desperately looking for their passport because they haven't seen it in six months or a year...

Even some rough info/speculation on this would be nice.

 

[Brainster]

Not long ago quite a few of them were using the phrase "faster than free fall," but that seems to have died down.

Same idea. The "spire" was a tall piece of the north tower wall that survived for a few seconds. I'm always impressed by how much of the lower wall structure remained standing. That's a great example of how the tower walls differed from a traditional curtain-wall skyscraper.

We got a guy posting that "faster than free fall" nonsense the other day. When I pointed out that would require some external force pushing down on the building, he explained that since it was an implosion, that meant there was a vaccuum, which pulled the building down.

Apparently he's not aware that "implosion" when it comes to CD is a marketing term, not a scientific one.

 

[Gravy]

Two splits?! What have I done!?

You have done me great injury, sir! I demand satisfaction!

 

[Gravy]

A quick question for the knowledgable...

This is regarding the discovered passport that CTers think is so important and the FBI don't...

Pre Sept 2001, what identification was required to board a domestic flight in the USA? And if a passport was not required, how common was it for people to carry their passport around anyway?

I'm thinking the image of someone off to the airport to go overseas, desperately looking for their passport because they haven't seen it in six months or a year...

Even some rough info/speculation on this would be nice.

I think it would be quite sensible for the hijackers to bring their passports along. As long as their papers were in order, why not carry all the ID they've got? Redundancy doesn't hurt.

I used my passport as ID for almost a year when I lost my driver license and was too lazy to replace it (I live in NYC and don't drive much).

Edited to add: How rude of me. Welcome, Gumboot!

 

[delphi_ote]

Well, you certainly created one of the longer thread(s) in forum history.

also,

- created a quasi-battleground between the JREF and Loose Change forums. In the process you created the JREF Ninja Wave.

- helped educate quite a few people as to the arguments on both sides of the discussion.

- allowed me to add "government shill" to my list of titles.

- given everyone a few pauses for serious thought (and more than a few chuckles)

All in all, it's a great thread. I just wish the DJLegacy/Gravy thread had taken off. That would have been a good read as well.

You're right. What people like Gravy have done in response to this thread has really been amazing. I couldn't have asked for a better response. You guys are great.

 

[Brainster]

A quick question for the knowledgable...

This is regarding the discovered passport that CTers think is so important and the FBI don't...

Pre Sept 2001, what identification was required to board a domestic flight in the USA? And if a passport was not required, how common was it for people to carry their passport around anyway?

I'm thinking the image of someone off to the airport to go overseas, desperately looking for their passport because they haven't seen it in six months or a year...

Even some rough info/speculation on this would be nice.

You did not have to show any identification. Around 1992 I lost my wallet while visiting New Jersey and the only reason I was a little nervous was that it was a free ticket I'd gotten from a frequent flier program and they were more likely to ask to confirm ID on those. But I explained the situation to the gal at the counter and she just said not to worry about it.

The odds of somebody carrying around their passport are indeed slim to none if they are US citizens used to staying inside the country. Of course that does not apply to Al Suqami.

 

[gumboot]

In 2001 I used my passport as ID for almost a year when I lost my driver license and was too lazy to replace it (I live in NYC and don't drive much).

Thanks, so you didn't necessarily need your passport right? In which case I'm going to assume most people probably didn't use it (why carry extra ID if you've got something else?)

So here's the thing...

Anyone in a clandestine scenario will always carry the "ID" that justifies their presence. If you're a spy in Russia, you make sure your "russian" passport is on you. These terrorists are "spies" as much as any agency operative. So it seems *more* likely a terrorist would have their passport on them somewhere than a regular civilian.

Admittedly this is all speculation, but it seems to make sense.

The passport found was for an alleged pilot hijacker, so he was at the front of the plane. Other reports I have read revealed the hands of one of the airline pilots (still bound in wire) were found on the roof of a building several blocks away.

All seems to make sense to me.

 

[Hutch]

Regarding the passport thing, I lived overseas (United Arab Emirates) for nearly 4 years and I was in the habit of keeping my passport in my briefcase and taking it to work and whenever I travelled outside Abu Dhabi. Yeah, I had a UAE Drivers' license and ID Card, but having a passport around always made me feel a bit more comfortable. I'm not too surprised that these guys would have had it with them, especially when travelling..

As for finding it, I speculate (hey, if LC can mutter darkly about our finding it I can think about a logical reason) that perhaps it was left outside of the clothing in the cockpit and thus was more likely to be flung away from the crash. No way to prove it, but it makes more sense than a "MIB" planting it in the middle of the devastation.

 

[gumboot]

No way to prove it, but it makes more sense than a "MIB" planting it in the middle of the devastation.

Given the detective's description of the civilian that gave him the passport (male, 30's, in a suit) I'm amazed they haven't claimed it was a CIA agent that gave it to him. I mean yeeeeesh. Do we have to do their work for them?

I bet the suit was black too...



-Andrew

 

[Polaris]

Someone find me a connection between:
George W. Bush
Italian Greyhounds
Jim Lovell
Ray Romano
The Flash
Metallica
and the Corliolus Effect.

And....GO!

You just created one - now they all exist on a thread on the JREF forum.

 

[Gravy]

Given the detective's description of the civilian that gave him the passport (male, 30's, in a suit) I'm amazed they haven't claimed it was a CIA agent that gave it to him. I mean yeeeeesh. Do we have to do their work for them?

I bet the suit was black too...



-Andrew

...And I haven't seen any of them mention the fact that the WTC is just up the street from the building that is used as the HQ in "Men in Black" (It's actually a ventilation building for the Brooklyn-Battery Tunnel).

At least one CT does mention MIBs: crackpot Karl Schwarz

In 1989 - there were plans to erect scaffolding and disassemble the WTC towers and rebuild them. Cost projection was around $5.6 billion. One of the architects shows up to work one day and the MIB's were there - had confiscated all of the plans, specs, details, etc for WTC. They even confiscated their office cubicles and had tape on the floor outlining where they went.

Love it.

 

[60hzxtl]

The CTs contend that the 3 WTC buildings fell "too fast," that is, at or near the speed they would have fallen if nothing resisted their fall. Some even claim that the towers fell as fast as they would in a vacuum, i.e. true free fall. The NIST report gives CTs a little ammunition because it refers to the towers as falling at "near" free fall speed. But then NIST goes on to say that the DIFFERENCE in the actual collapse speed and free fall is accounted for by the resistance providecd by the building's structure (and by air). The CTs leave that part out. If you're talking about 2 or 3 seconds' difference, that's 20 or 30% slower than free fall, which the folks with slide rules say is within the expected range. Now, do buildings that undergo "CD" fall at "free fall" speed?

And Freefall Speed is NOT to be confused with Terminal Velocity.

Terminal Velocity is a lot more fun.

 

[gumboot]

And Freefall Speed is NOT to be confused with Terminal Velocity.

Terminal Velocity is a lot more fun.

One thing I haven't heard explained in terms of CT theory. Their incredible grip on physics demonstrates that the speed the building collapsed at defies the laws of physics, therefore it couldn't be a collapse. It had to be CD. Since when did CD become a loophole for following the laws of physics?

 

[hellaeon]

Gumboot, the trick is not to understand this stuff, just ask questions...

 

[RandFan]

You're right. What people like Gravy have done in response to this thread has really been amazing. I couldn't have asked for a better response. You guys are great.

My hats off to you guys and especially to Gravy.

 

[R.Mackey]

Anyone in a clandestine scenario will always carry the "ID" that justifies their presence. If you're a spy in Russia, you make sure your "russian" passport is on you. These terrorists are "spies" as much as any agency operative. So it seems *more* likely a terrorist would have their passport on them somewhere than a regular civilian.

Probably true, for certain values of "ordinary citizen." I'm in the habit of carrying my passport around because I work with government agencies and defense contractors, and I'd rather show them my passport than give out my Social Security number to every visitor's desk that asks for it. Unusual, yes, but not that rare.

In any case, I'm not at all surprised that the terrorists were carrying their passports. I'd expect them to plan for snags, and carry anything that would help them get through unexpected scrutiny and untimely questions. At the same time, let's not jail people for carrying too much ID, please.

 

[WildCat]

You're right. What people like Gravy have done in response to this thread has really been amazing. I couldn't have asked for a better response. You guys are great.

I' just in awe of what Gravy has done here. Joined 3 months ago, 1130 posts and almost single-handedly destroyed whatever credibility the Loose Change movie had to the point only the true zealots cling to that thoroughly debunked piece of trash.

MikeW, you have also done a fantastic job w/ that 911 Myths site, it has been a great resource to me and I'm glad to see you here at the JREF boards.

Oops! Almost forgot Brainster and MarkyX, you two also do great work!

And delphi, thanks for getting the ball rolling!

 

[CurtC]

Around 1992 I lost my wallet while visiting New Jersey and the only reason I was a little nervous was that it was a free ticket I'd gotten from a frequent flier program and they were more likely to ask to confirm ID on those. But I explained the situation to the gal at the counter and she just said not to worry about it.

The odds of somebody carrying around their passport are indeed slim to none if they are US citizens used to staying inside the country.

For 1992, I believe that, but I thought that in the two or three years leading up to 2001, they did require positive ID such as a drivers license.

Also, I've had my passport in my briefcase since I got it in 1994. I just have always left it there, and it would be with me whenever I travel, which is almost all domestic. It's two years expired now, but still in the same spot in my briefcase.

 

[RandFan]

I' just in awe of what Gravy has done here. Joined 3 months ago, 1130 posts and almost single-handedly destroyed whatever credibility the Loose Change movie had to the point only the true zealots cling to that thoroughly debunked piece of trash.

MikeW, you have also done a fantastic job w/ that 911 Myths site, it has been a great resource to me and I'm glad to see you here at the JREF boards.

Oops! Almost forgot Brainster and MarkyX, you two also do great work!

And delphi, thanks for getting the ball rolling!

Include Chipmunk in that list.

 

[TjW]

Given the detective's description of the civilian that gave him the passport (male, 30's, in a suit) I'm amazed they haven't claimed it was a CIA agent that gave it to him. I mean yeeeeesh. Do we have to do their work for them?

I bet the suit was black too...



-Andrew

Sheesh, I mean, what are the odds of finding a guy in Manhattan in his thirties who wears a suit? Like that could happen.