Loose Change - Part II

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Well, after some time spent using the facilities available to me at work to double-check my observations, I tried posting my analysis of the stereo imaging in the phony audio clip, which I consider the most damning evidence of fakery, in the comments page on the mediumrecords site- politely, I might add.

The guy is, of course, clinging to its authenticity, essentially trying to rationalize away the very idea of the predictability and repeatability of phenomena in the physical universe.

You can read both of our posts here: http://www.mediumrecords.com/wtc/feedback/?p=2#comments

I would very much appreciate it if any of the other audio professionals here (fowlsound? you around?) would give me their opinion of my reasoning. I'm not buying the "sound does funny things" handwaving; if the patterns of reflection at a fixed location could be expected to change so drastically and quickly, the design of sound reinforcement systems (which is another area in which I have some experience) would be a crapshoot instead of a science, since it would be impossible to predict what effect reflected and reverberant sound would have on intelligibility.



You are absolutely correct, for sound to "change" then either the source changes, or the surrounding envorinment changes.

That said, sound does do funny things at times. Phase cancellation is a real and predictable (in controlled environments) event, however in the field, it is often very difficult to predict what your surroundings will do, therefore close mic techniques are used. Shotgun mics are very localized, to avoid just such problems with surrounding noise. Reverberation and reflection is very much predictable, given knowledge of room type, and size and shape etc. If you want a very real and easy to produce example of its predictability? Check out the digitally created reverbs in any recording software. ANY of them.

Sound real? Of course they do. Even free software developed quickly has convincing reverbs encoded. The reverbs in Cool Edit Pro 2 have just as much convincing reality as they do in Logic 7. They may not sound the same to each other (nor should they), but they still sound "real."

To produce that effect through programming means it HAS to be predictable, and it means that if we have the layout of the area in question, the types of materials the boundries and obsstructions are made of, and the decibel levels of the originating sound along with location of origination we can predict quite accurately.

However, I am interested to hear the answer as to why that source sound is stereo, when iirc that camera has one microphone.

If it was panned out to a stereo image for production purposes, then it shows that it certainly has been tampered with.


PS. Your analysis is dead on. When I asked if anyone sees something interesting when analyzing the sound, I was wondering if anyone would notice it is stereo, and the "echoes" have no direct attack, but are spread wide.


ETA:

It strikes me that if the source recording was rolled out to a stereo image in production, and it was lifted from a DVD like is claimed, then importing the source to a low end program like Cool Edit Pro would import it to a single, stereo track. If the person doing this thought they were clever by using a reverb effect to recreate the sustained repeated explosions, their echoes created by the reverb program would be repeated in a stereo image, not as the original source was in mono, thusly making the effect we have here. Single sound with clear attack and direction, with repeated echoes without direct attack to the sound, and coming from the spread of the stereo recording. This is a very specific trick used by recording engineers with bands for vocal echoes and effect. the echoes spread out give bigger presence to the single source vocal track on the recording. Listen closely to Floyd or Tool. Echoes like this have been a mainstay of rock ever since stereo recording became standard. This tool unintentionally created the effect that shows us this recording has had production done to it.

My guess is: He imported the audio not realizing it was folded out to stereo, and used a program that imports stereo sounds into one track as a stereo image. A very novice move at best. This is downright bungled.

ETA2:

If he *wanted* to make it sound authentic, then he should have taken the first sound as a mono image in another track, and create a mono echo. Then mix the track back into the stereo image leaving it panned center. That would have sounded more convincing. But I digress, now I'm just educating the frauds on how to do convincing fakes.
 
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Forgive that screech of neo-pilot tone, but I butted in over there with my first hand knowledgge of that very camera, and its settings.

(At this point I pop a brown paper bag, and announce "Sounds like an explosion to me!")

Speaking of which, I love how all the explosives the CT'er refer to are allways "high powered" explosives.



Good reply.

60hz, out of curiosity is there any way we can get our hands on the source recording to compare to the altered one?
 
Good reply.

60hz, out of curiosity is there any way we can get our hands on the source recording to compare to the altered one?

Thank you.

Not to my knowledge - the tape "belongs" to Evan Fairbanks - a freelancer working for Trinity on 9/11. He grabbed Trinity's camera, with Trinity's tape, on Trinity's time, and went out to shoot what was going on. He informed the FBI that he had the footage. FBI marked it as evidence, then returned the tape, which Fairbanks marketed.

I would have thought that with all the things I included above, that the tape would belong to Trinity. Trinity's lawyers said that because it was evidence, they were not going to pursue ownership. (?)

They went to law school I didn't.

Fairbanks $old the tape as his. It is still purchasable as $tock footage (Hear that Dylan? Bring your check book!) and it's digital, one's and zero's so there will be no quality loss.

And before you guys pile on me, no I don't still use 60Hz Xtl - the Nagra sits in the basement, haven't recorded with it in 10 years, but people bring me old tapes once in a while to listen to. I am still a field guy.
 
Thank you.

Not to my knowledge - the tape "belongs" to Evan Fairbanks - a freelancer working for Trinity on 9/11. He grabbed Trinity's camera, with Trinity's tape, on Trinity's time, and went out to shoot what was going on. He informed the FBI that he had the footage. FBI marked it as evidence, then returned the tape, which Fairbanks marketed.

I would have thought that with all the things I included above, that the tape would belong to Trinity. Trinity's lawyers said that because it was evidence, they were not going to pursue ownership. (?)

They went to law school I didn't.

Fairbanks $old the tape as his. It is still purchasable as $tock footage (Hear that Dylan? Bring your check book!) and it's digital, one's and zero's so there will be no quality loss.

And before you guys pile on me, no I don't still use 60Hz Xtl - the Nagra sits in the basement, haven't recorded with it in 10 years, but people bring me old tapes once in a while to listen to. I am still a field guy.


So basically we'd have to buy it from Evan, even though Trinity probably rightly owns it legally.

That's a hell of a cockup.

Either way, the fact that this new recording is stereo is enough for me to note that it was altered, and there is no way to pin down how altered it has become without comparing it to the original mono source. Therefore: not good evidence of anything, get out the big red rubber "debunked" stamp and slap it on the forehead of whatever asshat brought that thing forward as evidence of a CT.

On a side note, peer review of my assessment above is welcome. I wholly admit it is a theory with little evidence, but it is a very plausible explination of how a mono recording becomes stereo with added content in my opinion. ;)
 
So basically we'd have to buy it from Evan, even though Trinity probably rightly owns it legally.

That's a hell of a cockup.

QUOTE]


I'm just a soundman.

I was told by Trinity, that their lawyers said they had no grounds, and the higher ups said that since they were not in the stock footage business, they let it go. They are in the church business.

I'm just a soundman.

Ok, ok soundperson.
 
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Let me also add that Fairbanks is a cameraman, NOT a soundman.

I never met him - my experience with Trinity's gear began a week and a half later.

If I had set the camera mike, ch 1 would have been a preset, ch 2 auto,

or, Ch 1 preset, and ch 2 preset -3db.

(I would not set -6db that would have meant I knew what was going to happen, and had foreknowledge!)
 
Let me also add that Fairbanks is a cameraman, NOT a soundman.

I never met him - my experience with Trinity's gear began a week and a half later.

If I had set the camera mike, ch 1 would have been a preset, ch 2 auto,

or, Ch 1 preset, and ch 2 preset -3db.

(I would not set -6db that would have meant I knew what was going to happen, and had foreknowledge!)



Which is why I don't operate cameras. I am merely a fader jockey that makes crap bands sound less crap...
 
So basically we'd have to buy it from Evan, even though Trinity probably rightly owns it legally.

That's a hell of a cockup.

Either way, the fact that this new recording is stereo is enough for me to note that it was altered, and there is no way to pin down how altered it has become without comparing it to the original mono source. Therefore: not good evidence of anything, get out the big red rubber "debunked" stamp and slap it on the forehead of whatever asshat brought that thing forward as evidence of a CT.

On a side note, peer review of my assessment above is welcome. I wholly admit it is a theory with little evidence, but it is a very plausible explination of how a mono recording becomes stereo with added content in my opinion. ;)

Fairbanks might part with a copy for free if you explain what the use is and offer to write up your findings for him. I'm sure he'd be interested to know if a fake is out there.
 
Fairbanks might part with a copy for free if you explain what the use is and offer to write up your findings for him. I'm sure he'd be interested to know if a fake is out there.


I'd be happy to contact him, but I have no idea how.

So if I do this analysis, do I get to be a JREF ninja?
 
Also, there is no sound on his footage of the second plane hitting the second tower.

Camera mike was not yet switched on.

Mike switched on later.
 
Also, there is no sound on his footage of the second plane hitting the second tower.

Camera mike was not yet switched on.

Mike switched on later.



Just out of curiosity, has anyone claimed to have sound from your camera for that incident?
 
Just out of curiosity, has anyone claimed to have sound from your camera for that incident?


Not to my knowledge. But that is a heads up if it "does appear"

And its not my camera.

Also heading off the "it was erased" CT.
 
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I think you mean Rimmer.

GAH!

Been too long since I've seen the show. Still, can't believe I mixed up THAT.

farrisjs said:
No I work for the VAMC as a computer specialist in medical imaging, ie Radiology, Nuclear Medicine....

I'm not sure what I want to do over I just thought I would do something and see how they reacted to the truth.

You know, I should have realized this, since you mentioned PET scanning. My brain must not have turned on yesterday.
 
Not to my knowledge. But that is a heads up if it "does appear"

And its not my camera.

Also heading off the "it was erased" CT.



I stand corrected, and your exceptions are noted.

Anyone wanna bet if those claims show up?
 
I'd be happy to contact him, but I have no idea how.

So if I do this analysis, do I get to be a JREF ninja?
I think you've proven yourself to be totally ninjarrific already.

You, 60hzxtl, and ktesibios combine to form a Ninja Wall of Sound, obliterating woos with your Sonic Wave of Doom.
 
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You know, I should have realized this, since you mentioned PET scanning. My brain must not have turned on yesterday.

There brains are all turn off at the LC forum, I think they thought I was talking about a weapon. I don't think they do any thinking over there. It didn't take people on this forum very long to see I wasn't saying much.
 
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