Loose Change - Part II

[RandFan]

DJLegacy2k1

A skeptics Forum was made because, before JREF started coming here, "skeptics" handled things respectfully and like normal adults. Then we started seeing an influx of people that were name calling, spreading disinformation such as Gravy's article and Im doing a VERY extensive Debunk of. We all admit there are errors in Loose Change, Dylan is the first one to admit it...

Im for equal rights and freedoms of both skeptics and truthers, and you can ask anyone on this board about that. I was accually asked to leave because I was standing up for a VERY select few from the JREF boards so that they were NOT banned. If you can act maturely and like a normal adult, feel free to question and talk about the 9/11 issues anywhere on the board. But do not go into the research section telling people they are "wackjob tin hat wearers" and that the Commission Report is 100% truth, because if you have a 100% opinion of what exactly happened, you obviouslyarent here to RESEARCH or help people out, your just here to inturrupt others from doing their own truth searching.

Bottom line is, help everyone be productive...Or don't come here, basically.

What disinformation? You cowardly weasely $#!@

 

[JamesB]

We all admit there are errors in Loose Change, Dylan is the first one to admit it...

There are errors in Loose Change. That is like saying there is sand in the desert.

 

[delphi_ote]

What disinformation? You cowardly weasely $#!@

I'm afraid his quote there needs a little editing to be true. Here's the revised version:

I'm not for equal rights or freedoms for skeptics, only truthers, and you can ask anyone on this board with any common sense about that. I was accually asked to leave because I was standing up for a VERY select few from the JREF boards so that they were NOT banned disagreeing with other mods. If you can act maturely and like a normal adult, feel free to question and talk about the 9/11 issues anywhere, but not on this board. Do not go into the research section telling people they are "wackjob tin hat wearers" totally mistaken about 9/11 and that the Commission Report is 100% truth has any facts in it at all, because if you have a 100% opinion of what exactly happened aren't one of the strawmen we've constructed, we obviously arent here to RESEARCH or help people out don't want to talk to you, your just here to inturrupt others from doing their own truth searching fantasy role playing.

It's really hard to fact check these guys!

 

[Hutch]

Say Hutch, could you post what you wrote here for everyone to enjoy?

Pardalis (and everyone else), thank you for the kind comments. However, I cannot access Loose Change from home, and I suspect when I go into work tomorow that ISP will similiary be locked out.

Utterly humorless bunch....

I will admit that there will be some withdrawal symptoms, not being able to comment on the absolute loonieness (I had a couple of posts in mind for the Moon Hoax and "Nuclear bomb in WTC's that probably would have banished me anyway) but it was fun while it lasted.

And if they haven't closed my back door...heheheheheheheh..Rotary Aircraft Hellfire Ninja Attack!!!

 

[Pidge]

Say Hutch, could you post what you wrote here for everyone to enjoy?

Does Hutch have to do it? Is it simply bad etiquette or contrary to JREF forum rules to post someone else's post from another forum?

Anyway, I'll stick my neck out since I seem to be able to get in to the LC forum. Please feel free to correct me if I'm in the wrong to do this.

Hutch's post

Well, as I understand it (and I could well be wrong, I didn't join until after this Sub-Forum was established)....

It didn't exist at first because everybody here all agreed with each other and everything was sweetness and light--and then....

Some nasty JREF Ninja Wave skeptics showed up and began asking questions and posting evidence contradictory to the prevaling wisdom. A campaign was begun to debunk these folks, but finding them rather immune to the "Oh Yeah?" school of debunking, the Admin began banning the evil JREF Ninja's. In fact, our lead Sensei, Gravy, remains permanently banned from this Forum.

But that created a problem, because for a Forum dedicated to Truth with a capital "T", this intolerance and dismissal of dissenting opinion looked suspiciously like the same intolerance and dismissal the LC'ers were receiving from the Government and the Powers-that-be. And since this was intolerable, some wise LC'er came up with the idea of a Skeptics Forum.

I believe the intent was to contain us there. Problem is, it has often been the liviest place on the Forum because rather than just posting clips and others admiring them, people actually debate and discuss things here.

And while we are supposed to be limited, wily JREF Ninjas occassionally break quarantine and creep into other threads wielding our Ockham's Razor-Swords and our motto "Free Gravy" (especially on Biscuits).

At least-that's my story. Might not be 100% accurate like some of the LC claims I have seen made, but it's written better than most of them--IMHO of course.

Press on.

Oh, and a bonus:

I love the Amazing Randi. I would have thought the people from his forum would be really well-educated and well-spoken for the most part. If what you say is true, I\'m disappointed. I\'ll have to pay them a visit.

Come, henhouse, turn to the, um, oh damn, what was I going to say, Dark side, nononono, not right. Paisley? no. Light. Hmmm. Truth. Oppps, capital T. truth? hmm, not impressive. Oh well...

 

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

There are errors in Loose Change. That is like saying there is sand in the desert.

This just in: Water still wet; film at 11!

 

[Brainster]

I think the good outweighs the bad here. I admit that I wished I never went with the whole 'sarcastic bastard' approuch and acted a little more professional, but even so, you cannot deny LC is full of crap.

I've been torn on this over at Screw Loose Change, but my thought is that we have to fight fire with fire. Loose Change has caught attention because it aims to entertain and "educate", with the emphasis on the first part. Well, we've gotta do the same thing.

You can't feel sorry for the people who are involved in this movement. They're wrong, and they're dangerously wrong. You've gotta aim your efforts at the folks on the fence, and believe me, sarcasm backed up by facts works terrifically with them.

 

[Pardalis]

Does Hutch have to do it? Is it simply bad etiquette or contrary to JREF forum rules to post someone else's post from another forum?

Actually, I wanted Hutch to post it here so that I could nominate it.

 

[ktesibios]

Well, after some time spent using the facilities available to me at work to double-check my observations, I tried posting my analysis of the stereo imaging in the phony audio clip, which I consider the most damning evidence of fakery, in the comments page on the mediumrecords site- politely, I might add.

The guy is, of course, clinging to its authenticity, essentially trying to rationalize away the very idea of the predictability and repeatability of phenomena in the physical universe.

You can read both of our posts here: http://www.mediumrecords.com/wtc/feedback/?p=2#comments

I would very much appreciate it if any of the other audio professionals here (fowlsound? you around?) would give me their opinion of my reasoning. I'm not buying the "sound does funny things" handwaving; if the patterns of reflection at a fixed location could be expected to change so drastically and quickly, the design of sound reinforcement systems (which is another area in which I have some experience) would be a crapshoot instead of a science, since it would be impossible to predict what effect reflected and reverberant sound would have on intelligibility.

 

[Gravy]

.The guy is, of course, clinging to its authenticity, essentially trying to rationalize away the very idea of the predictability and repeatability of phenomena in the physical universe.

You can read both of our posts here: http://www.mediumrecords.com/wtc/feedback/?p=2#comments

I think I found the problem: your analysis doesn't take into consideration the echoing inside his empty skull.

 

[Manny]

I've been torn on this over at Screw Loose Change, but my thought is that we have to fight fire with fire. Loose Change has caught attention because it aims to entertain and "educate", with the emphasis on the first part. Well, we've gotta do the same thing.

You can't feel sorry for the people who are involved in this movement. They're wrong, and they're dangerously wrong. You've gotta aim your efforts at the folks on the fence, and believe me, sarcasm backed up by facts works terrifically with them.

Here's something I might spend some time on, though. Maybe pick each of the various CTs topics, including the ones not addressed by LC and create a debunking folder that can be pulled out for debates, message boards or whatever. "No, that's not a JT8D piece, it's an RB211; here's a picture." "Yes, Northwinds existed. But you have to realize that even the geniuses who came up with the Bay of Pigs rejected it as too wacky." "In fact. Coroner Miller said he recovered over 600 pounds of human remains," etc. Then let each arguer pick his/her own level of sarcasm. If it rains again this weekend I might get a start on it.

 

[60hzxtl]

I would very much appreciate it if any of the other audio professionals here (fowlsound? you around?) would give me their opinion of my reasoning. I'm not buying the "sound does funny things" handwaving; if the patterns of reflection at a fixed location could be expected to change so drastically and quickly, the design of sound reinforcement systems (which is another area in which I have some experience) would be a crapshoot instead of a science, since it would be impossible to predict what effect reflected and reverberant sound would have on intelligibility.

Forgive that screech of neo-pilot tone, but I butted in over there with my first hand knowledgge of that very camera, and its settings.

(At this point I pop a brown paper bag, and announce "Sounds like an explosion to me!")

Speaking of which, I love how all the explosives the CT'er refer to are allways "high powered" explosives.

 

[Gravy]

Forgive that screech of neo-pilot tone, but I butted in over there with my first hand knowledgge of that very camera, and its settings.

Great reply, 60hz. Worth viewing, folks http://www.mediumrecords.com/wtc/feedback/?p=2#comments

 

[Regnad Kcin]

[The JREF] is full of Commission Report lovers...Although the NIST report is admittedly a THEORY, these people hate Conspiracy Theorists...and many of them like to resort to name calling and causing problems on the board....

Some are ok and act like normal humans but that's hard to find.

I love the Amazing Randi. I would have thought the people from his forum would be really well-educated and well-spoken for the most part. If what you say is true, I\'m disappointed. I\'ll have to pay them a visit.

Perhaps someone registered there should PM henhouse and issue an invite.

Oh, and who here is a "Commission Report lover?" Show of hands.

 

[dubfan]

What disinformation? You cowardly weasely $#!@

Translation:

Disinformation = anything that upsets the CT applecart.

Somewhat paradoxically, in the CT universe, disinformation is a label that can be applied both to a fact and its contradiction. Thus we have the situation where any facts that support AA77 being flown into the Pentagon are considered disinformation by the Loosers, while the whole no-plane-hit-the-Pentagon theory itself is considered disinformation by others.

Hey, these guys are nothing if not incoherent.

 

[dubfan]

Here's something I might spend some time on, though. Maybe pick each of the various CTs topics, including the ones not addressed by LC and create a debunking folder that can be pulled out for debates, message boards or whatever. "No, that's not a JT8D piece, it's an RB211; here's a picture." "Yes, Northwinds existed. But you have to realize that even the geniuses who came up with the Bay of Pigs rejected it as too wacky." "In fact. Coroner Miller said he recovered over 600 pounds of human remains," etc. Then let each arguer pick his/her own level of sarcasm. If it rains again this weekend I might get a start on it.

I'm envisioning we could use that as a database to feed an Eliza-type program that would dialog with conspiracy theorists.

I think we could automate this entire debate.

 

[RandFan]

Oh, and who here is a "Commission Report lover?" Show of hands.

And how many people here are critical of George Bush and his foriegn policy? I've debated a number of people here so I know we are not monolithic in our views about the President and the Iraq war.

 

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

And how many people here are critical of George Bush and his foriegn policy? I've debated a number of people here so I know we are not monolithic in our views about the President and the Iraq war.

It's also willful ignorance in DJ's case, as (in my <2 week lifespan over there) I made it clear that in terms of scientific methodology that the NIST report would be considered the accepted theory (paradigm) and all others are alternate theories. Of course in angsty CTerland that means that all theories are equal. *mutter*

 

[RandFan]

And how many people here are critical of George Bush and his foreign policy? I've debated a number of people here so I know we are not monolithic in our views about the President and the Iraq war.

To be clear I have supported Bush and the war. I have been critical of his domestic response to 9/11. I think Katrina shattered any notion that we had made any significant progress in preparing to deal with a large scale attack. I'm also quite certain that a year after Katrina we have not made any sufficient progress.

Give me a Democrat that will fix these problems and I will vote for her (or him, I'm not particular).

Sorry for the derail. I won't do it again.

 

[Sword_Of_Truth]

I think Katrina shattered any notion that we had made any significant progress in preparing to deal with a large scale attack. I'm also quite certain that a year after Katrina we have not made any sufficient progress.

<Derail>
Popular Mechanics, in the spirit of thier 9-11 conspiracy debunking, came out with another debunking of Katrina myths.

Thier conclusions were that Katrina showed room for improvement but was not quite the massive goat rodeo that the media made it out to be.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/earth/2315076.html

</Derail>

Linking this back to Loose Change, the media tends to thrive on many of the same flaws in human thinking that Avery & Co. have with thier con job. Though the major media tends not to throw any bilge they come up with to the public with reckless abandon like the LC crowd, they are the ones who invented the mantra "if it bleeds, it leads".