Loose Change - Part II

Status
Not open for further replies.
No insults ?


Damn.




Sentinel

Sentinel, you are becoming abusive and antagonistic. If you have points to make, make them. Do not insult other forum members.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: tim
 
Now this is something that can probably be tested or at least discussed using mathematics and known values. If someone can come up with the explosive power of JP4 when ignitiing 10,000 gallons (and of course not all of it would ignite at once, and some of it might be still be bulk liquid and some spread out in a fuel-air mixture). Anybody up to some calculating?

Quick and dirty math here, if any one sees flaws, point them out.

From here: http://www.bts.gov/publications/national_transportation_statistics/html/table_04_06_m.html

Jet fuel = 37,626,700 joules/liter

10,000 gallons = 37,854.118 liters

So our energy comes out to 1424325541751 joules.

1 Kg of TNT = 4612070 joules

So I'm getting 10,000 gallons of jet fule being inline with 308825.6557 Kg of TNT.

However some things to factor in, TNT is a high explsove and would release its energy much faster then JP4. Also this takes into account total conversion and usage of the JP4 in a single blast. We all saw that the explosion was over a few seconds and was more of a rapid burn, more in line with gun-poweder then TNT.

I'm sure Huntsman can explain the explosives side better then I
 
Now this is something that can probably be tested or at least discussed using mathematics and known values. If someone can come up with the explosive power of JP4 when ignitiing 10,000 gallons (and of course not all of it would ignite at once, and some of it might be still be bulk liquid and some spread out in a fuel-air mixture). Anybody up to some calculating?

Back of the envelope:

A fuel-air mix has an RF of about 5, so 10,000 gallons (at about 6lbs/gallon) is an explosive force of 150 tons of TNT (0.15 kilotons), assuming it was all aerosol and ignited simultaneously. Obviously, this was not the case.

The impact caused a rapid combustion, rather than explosion (the damage was heat based, much reduced blast wave compared to explosives). Assuming a contained liquid (RF value ~.8), It's equivalent to 4 tons of TNT (0.004 kilotons), which is really not that large (I've seen larger explosions live).

Seems to me (eyeballing, and recall this is back-of-the-envelope calculation) that the explosion witnessed falls somewhere between these, towards the low end. This would make sense if part of the fuel was dispersed when ignited. The disperesed fuel provided the initial fireball, the remaining fuel (no longer contained) was not explosive, but simply burned.

As pointed out, the fuel tanks are located in the wings and central area of the aircraft, not in the front portion. The tanks would have had to rupture upon entry and then an ignition source would have had to ignite the fuel. Meanwhile at least some of the fuel is still travelling at an appreciable fraction of the 500MPH speed (that old man Newton, again). Given that the building was only about 208 Ft across (IIRC, please correct me if I am wrong) the fuel/wreckage, ignition sources (engine heat, for example) would cross that space in:
500MPH = 733.5 Feet per Second (FPS)
400MPH = 586.8 FPS
300MPH = 440.1 FPS

So it seems plausible that the fuel, exploding forward as the tanks ruptured, would be able to explode out of the building in the manner we saw. But I am willing to listen to your conclusions if the above is not satisfactory.

If it helps, a fuel explosion typically has expansion speeds on the order of 15,000 fps (IIRC, someone may want to check this). I know it's about 24,000 fps for C-4 and other cutting charges, 21,000 fps for Ammonium nitrate and other cratering charges, and I believe fuels are from 12,000 to 18000 fps. Then, consider that the plane has to travel partway intot he building (for the fuel tanks to impact), and also much have an ignition source (heat/spark/electricity, which souldn't be much of an issue but still takes time). The plane itself is about 160 feet long, and about 60 feet from nose to wing. So, we have a travel distance of about 100 feet from wing impact, until the plane is completely inside the building. More precisely, the wings and fuel tanks are only 20 to 30 feet long (front to back), so that's really what we have to work with. How much would the fireball expand before being inside the building? So, taking our 733 fps speed, and looking at a 30 ft distance, we have about .041 seconds for expansion, which gives us a distance of 615 feet. Note that this assumes a gasloine bomb that detonates on impact. In reality, the container would be broken open before ignition, which would limit this expansion further. Not to mention there would be a slight delay between impact and ignition, perhaps as much as .01 seconds, which would knock another 25% off this distance.

Not this is all back-of-the-envelope calcualtion, I'd have to check sources to get anything more precise.
 
Last edited:
azazal:

Good call. 300,000 lbs of TNT is what I came out with using RF values, but that assumes you have the entire quantity disperse in an aerosol and ignited more-or-less simultanously (i.e.-fuel-air explosion), which is about the most efficient way to get the energy out of it.

Realistically, it's going to be nowhere close. A closed-container gasloine bomb has an RF around .8 (i.e.-1lb is equivalent to .8 lbs of TNT) and an explosive speed of 15,000 fps. Once the container is broken, it's anyone's guess.
 
Hey Tim

Insults shouldn't be tolerated from anyone.


so get a grip.


Oh, I guess this gets me banned now.

Sentinel
 
Measurements

Measure the space between the exterior wall and the central core collums.
Measure the legnth and width of the 767.


Why does it take so long for an explosion to occure when the plane should have impacted the floors and broken up and disintergrated while being absorbed in the building.


Doesn't impacting multible floors bring about multible floors exploding?


Why does the impact show only one floor exploding if the plane went into the building on a tilt?



Sentinel
 
Insults shouldn't be tolerated from anyone.


so get a grip.


Oh, I guess this gets me banned now.

Sentinel

I have a grip, don't worry about it. I do not recall mentioning banning or suspension. I asked that you do not insult other posters. If you prefer -
All posters on this thread are reminded that you are expected to refrain from insulting other posters.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: tim
 
Insults

Lets make sure "I" have this right, OK?


You said all forum members are reminded that "I" should refrain from insults?


Maybe you should take a trip on the way back machine to see who actually initiated the insults and bring it up with them instead of showing as usual biased judgement, Sir.


Look it up



sentinel
 
Sentinel, when you first PMd me, I responded
If you have a message, please present it on the discussion boards. And have evidence to support it. You're dealing with skeptics here.
-Mark
If you have points to make, make them, and back them up with evidence.

It's fine to ask questions, as long as you genuinely can't figure out how to get the answers and think we might be able to help.

Several people have told you that you're not being clear when you post. As an example, this was your first post on this forum, and it came out of the blue.

It looks to me like you're really rushing. If you can, slow down, take it one question at a time, and try to thoroughly explain what you do and don't understand.

When someone takes the time to give a thorough answer to your questions, you might at least acknowledge their effort.

I've asked you this a few times now. There seem to be conflicting reports about statements you may or may not have made. You can clear it up here.

Do you know of any firemen who were on the scene on 9/11 and who claim, today, that they believe there were bombs in the WTC? If so, I would like to interview them.

Thanks.

eta link
 
Last edited:
Lets make sure "I" have this right, OK?

You said all forum members are reminded that "I" should refrain from insults?

Maybe you should take a trip on the way back machine to see who actually initiated the insults and bring it up with them instead of showing as usual biased judgement, Sir.

Look it up
That would be DJLegacy, who was visiting for the day from the Loose Change forum. I suggest you take it up with him.

We DO look things up here.
 
"Crackpot"

Does that sound familiar to you Gravy?


I have only 30 minutes to write up several report at the Public Library, so bare with me, Ok?


You people expect perfection and then when you don't have it spoon fed the way you like you resort to childish name calling.


As for DJLegacy (in his own mind) I already had the go round with him and thats why he doesn't post anymore disimfo.


So Gravy live by your words.



Sentinel
 
Question from Gravy

Yes, as a matter of fact I do. But, I unlike many in the CT/Skeptical world I respect their wishes on confidentiality.


But you can go to the reports that are already out there in the internet and check for yourself. Example: The transcrips 1 Cheif of safety Albert Turi for starters.



I am a master/radioman-Regional FWDSIGINT. I was on scene long before I got there and heard the radio reports on the Explosions. Thats as far as I can go with it for now.




Sentinel
 
Measure the space between the exterior wall and the central core collums.
Measure the legnth and width of the 767.

Why does it take so long for an explosion to occure when the plane should have impacted the floors and broken up and disintergrated while being absorbed in the building.

Doesn't impacting multible floors bring about multible floors exploding?

Why does the impact show only one floor exploding if the plane went into the building on a tilt?

Hey! Here's an idea ! Why don't you ask someone knowledgeable in plane crashes, someone knowledgeable in explosives (I think it's obvious we have one here), and someone who knows about building damage and demolition.

Maybe then you'll have answers instead of questions.
 
Yes, as a matter of fact I do. But, I unlike many in the CT/Skeptical world I respect their wishes on confidentiality.
Understood.

But you can go to the reports that are already out there in the internet and check for yourself. Example: The transcrips 1 Cheif of safety Albert Turi for starters.
I've read that report. I was asking if anyone STILL thinks there were bombs in the building. Of course there was tremendous confusion at the time, and many people said it sounded LIKE bombs were going off. That's a common and understandable way of describing what they heard. It's especially understandable in light of the fact that the WTC had been bombed in 1993. That doesn't mean there WERE bombs going off. Would you agree that in a skyscraper that's been hit by a high-speed aircraft and suffers severe structural damage and fires, many things can cause explosions?

I am a master/radioman-Regional FWDSIGINT. I was on scene long before I got there and heard the radio reports on the Explosions. Thats as far as I can go with it for now.
Do you mean you were on the radio long before you got there?
 
Measure the space between the exterior wall and the central core collums.
Measure the legnth and width of the 767.


Why does it take so long for an explosion to occure when the plane should have impacted the floors and broken up and disintergrated while being absorbed in the building.


Doesn't impacting multible floors bring about multible floors exploding?


Why does the impact show only one floor exploding if the plane went into the building on a tilt?



Sentinel
How long is "So long"?
At 550 mph, the plane was traveling at 806 feet/second.
The tower was 210 feet wide. Assuming the plane's energy was all absorbed by the building, its average velocity through the building was 403 ft/sec (assumes that the plane traveled exactly 100% of the width of the building--actual average velocity would be higher)
thats 520 milliseconds to travel the full width. --1/2 second.
The actual fireball started before the plane was fully within the building--and since the 757 is shorter than 208 feet, the time for the kaboom was less than 1/2 second after initial impact.
From what i can see of the video, the exit bloom encompasses several floors.
 
Co-hearency

Wait a minute...


Doesn't it mean you're reading it? I am writing english and you do seem to get the gist of it, so the only problem I see is....




Sentinel
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

ISF - Join now!

Every member here is approved by hand. No bots, no spam, just people who care about evidence and honest debate.

Membership is free!

Create your free account

Back
Top Bottom