Logical? Deism.

[Guest]

10$ says Unas does some type of martial art.

 

[Unas]

Unas,

Who are you?.

Why does it matter?

Suddenly you appear and follow Franko around the forum

Franko is a liar. I dislike liars. I call them on their lies when I find them lying.

 

[Franko]

10$ says Unas does some type of martial art.

Yeah, $20 says that he is Master of the "Thumb up Ass" style of Kung Foo.

 

[Guest]

Yeah, $20 says that he is Master of the "Thumb up Ass" style of Kung Foo.

That could be.

I'm thinking more along the lines of doing a spiritual dance in the ring and wearing a funny hat and praying to his ancestors and trainers and a god for good luck.

And then turning around and claiming that his martial art is purely rational.

 

[MRC_Hans]

How long did this "Timeless Era" last for MRC? (approximately?)

It didnt last for anything, since that would imply the existence of time. "Timeless Era" is an oxymoron.

Hans

 

[Franko]

Franko:
How long did this "Timeless Era" last for MRC? (approximately?)

MRC:
It didnt last for anything

Well if this "Timeless Era" lasted for Time = 0 then isn;t that the same as saying that NO TIMELESS ERA EVER EXISTED??

How is what you are saying ANY different?

Explain it to me ...

 

[Tricky]

Well if this "Timeless Era" lasted for Time = 0 then isn;t that the same as saying that NO TIMELESS ERA EVER EXISTED??

How is what you are saying ANY different?

Explain it to me ...

Maybe this little exercise will help you understand, franko.

Tell us how long it takes for you to log on to your computer, but do so without using reference to any units of time or chronological terms, and without comparing it to the duration of some other task.

 

[Franko]

Tricky: (A-Theist Believer)
Tell us how long it takes for you to log on to your computer, but do so without using reference to any units of time or chronological terms, and without comparing it to the duration of some other task.

Like I said "Tricky" I can't imagine Time Not existing.

Only A-Theists claim to possess this "magic power". Unfortunately none of them seem able to explain how it works ... including yourself. Personally I lack-o-belief in magic A-Theist powers. I also lack a belief that there was ever a "Timeless Era". It is a logically inconsistent notion. I'd even say it was axiomatically False.

 

[Tricky]

Like I said "Tricky" I can't imagine Time Not existing.

So sorry your powers of conception are so weak, but at least you see the internal contradiction of asking "how long was there no time", right?

Think of it instead as a timeless "state", a term which makes no reference to time.

 

[Franko]

Think of it instead as a timeless "state", a term which makes no reference to time.

Did this timeless state last any less Time that you spent thinking about writing that sentence? What is your evidence that Time can NOT exist Trixy? It sounds a rather insane notion to me.

 

[MRC_Hans]

Well if this "Timeless Era" lasted for Time = 0 then isn;t that the same as saying that NO TIMELESS ERA EVER EXISTED??

How is what you are saying ANY different?

Explain it to me ...

It is not any different. There is no reference in the universe to describe the state where the universe does not exist. This does, however, not lead to the logic conclusion that the universe has existed "forever".

Hans

 

[Franko]

MRC:
It is not any different. There is no reference in the universe to describe the state where the universe does not exist. This does, however, not lead to the logic conclusion that the universe has existed "forever".

I agree. But even if this Universe has not existed forever (it hasn't), how could Time NOT exist in the prior period? I am saying that it is IMPOSSIBLE for a consciousness to imagine "No TIME". You can't do it (not without making yourself cease to exist). Try it yourself!

 

[Tricky]

Did this timeless state last any less Time that you spent thinking about writing that sentence? What is your evidence that Time can NOT exist Trixy? It sounds a rather insane notion to me.

sigh
I show you a way to think of it without using chronological references and the first thing you do is go and add them back in.

I'm sorry, Franko. I don't believe I will be able to cure your inability to conceptualize.

 

[Franko]

Tricky:
I show you a way to think of it without using chronological references and the first thing you do is go and add them back in.

I'm sorry, Franko. I don't believe I will be able to cure your inability to conceptualize.

Either you don't honestly believe what you are claiming, or you are giving up far too easy.

Perhaps you could practice on MRC. He doesn't seem to be in complete agreement with you on this point. I'm sure you could explain it to him easier than you could explain it to me.

 

[Tricky]

Either you don't honestly believe what you are claiming, or you are giving up far too easy.

LOL. I don't think anyone could accuse me of giving up too easy. I've been sparring with you for over a year now, though many (including Randi) have advised me not to waste my time doing so.

Perhaps you could practice on MRC. He doesn't seem to be in complete agreement with you on this point. I'm sure you could explain it to him easier than you could explain it to me.

There is no need to because MRC already understands. I'm just working with the remedial students here.

 

[MRC_Hans]

I agree. But even if this Universe has not existed forever (it hasn't), how could Time NOT exist in the prior period? I am saying that it is IMPOSSIBLE for a consciousness to imagine "No TIME". You can't do it (not without making yourself cease to exist). Try it yourself!

There was no prior period. "Period" requires time to exist. Time is just another part of the fabric of this universe. In the state where this universe does not exist, neither does time.

Even if it impossible for a consciousness to imagine (and it is sure difficult), that is not evidence that it is impossible. It just shows the limitations of our mind. Can you imagine what it is like to be a non-conscious entity? Yet rocks exist.

Hans

 

[Franko]

There was no prior period. "Period" requires time to exist.

I agree, so it is impossible for there to be “No Time”.

Time is just another part of the fabric of this universe.

Question begging. What is your empirical evidence for this claim?

You can’t even explain this logically. Essentially you are claiming you can draw a 4-sided triangle … you just don’t feel like it right now.

Same thing you are doing with “free will”. It’s easy to pretend to believe in things that you don’t really comprehend. This way if someone challenges you on it, you can just claim you are really smart, and they are the one who doesn’t comprehend.

If you understood what you were talking about … you could explain it better.

In the state where this universe does not exist, neither does time.

How so? When the Universe didn’t exist … How Long did it Not exist for?

Once again if you say that it Not existed for zero time (Time = 0) then isn’t that the same as saying there was NEVER a Timeless Era???

Even if it impossible for a consciousness to imagine (and it is sure difficult), that is not evidence that it is impossible.

Yes, that is EXACTLY what it is evidence of. Special Pleading is a Logical fallacy – even when “scientific” A-Theists do it.

You may have deluded yourself into believing you follow the “one true faith”, but not everyone is so easily duped. Some of us actually require logical (comprehensible) reasons for believing things. We can’t just pretend that the Emperor’s new clothes look so good, because if we don’t pretend other idiots won’t think we are “smart”.

It just shows the limitations of our mind.

No, the person who has NOTHING but Special Pleads and Logical Fallacies to back up their beliefs is the one who’s mind has been Limited.

Can you imagine what it is like to be a non-conscious entity? Yet rocks exist.

Only because You imagine that they do.

 

[MRC_Hans]

quote:
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There was no prior period. "Period" requires time to exist.
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I agree, so it is impossible for there to be “No Time”.

No, it is just impossible to have a "timeless period".

quote:
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Time is just another part of the fabric of this universe.
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Question begging. What is your empirical evidence for this claim?


You can’t even explain this logically. Essentially you are claiming you can draw a 4-sided triangle … you just don’t feel like it right now.


Same thing you are doing with “free will”. It’s easy to pretend to believe in things that you don’t really comprehend. This way if someone challenges you on it, you can just claim you are really smart, and they are the one who doesn’t comprehend.

If you understood what you were talking about … you could explain it better.

Just a minute. We are here discussing the scientific theory of the Big Bang. If I could present proof of that theory, I sure wouldn't be wasting my time on this board. The prevalent theories are:

1) Big Bang (majority theory): The universe, including spacetime was created at some point. Before then there was nothing, there wasnt even "before".

2) Linear universe (minority theory): The universe is infinite, has existed infinitely, and will exist infinitely. (this theory has some nasty problems with entrophy).

Now, you have a third theory: Time is infinite, the rest is not. Some of us have now been trying to explain BB theory to you, but for your theory, you have the burden of proof.

quote:
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In the state where this universe does not exist, neither does time.
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How so? When the Universe didn’t exist … How Long did it Not exist for?

Once again if you say that it Not existed for zero time (Time = 0) then isn’t that the same as saying there was NEVER a Timeless Era???

Timeless era, no. Timeless state, yes.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Even if it impossible for a consciousness to imagine (and it is sure difficult), that is not evidence that it is impossible.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes, that is EXACTLY what it is evidence of. Special Pleading is a Logical fallacy – even when “scientific” A-Theists do it.

Are you seriously claiming that if our consciousness cannot imagine someting, then it must be false??? Even under your "consciousness creates matter" premise, that claim is absurd. Certainly, the universe contains things that neither you nor I can imagine. But if the Universe is created by a higher entitiy, this entity presumably understands it all.

You may have deluded yourself into believing you follow the “one true faith”, but not everyone is so easily duped. Some of us actually require logical (comprehensible) reasons for believing things. We can’t just pretend that the Emperor’s new clothes look so good, because if we don’t pretend other idiots won’t think we are “smart”.

Yeah, well. I could just as easily tell you the same. After all, the only evidence you have ever presented for your "true faith" is a flawed syllogism and a non-sequiteur.


quote:
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It just shows the limitations of our mind.
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No, the person who has NOTHING but Special Pleads and Logical Fallacies to back up their beliefs is the one who’s mind has been Limited.

Right, so when are you gonna present some hard evidence?

quote:
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Can you imagine what it is like to be a non-conscious entity? Yet rocks exist.
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Only because You imagine that they do.

Special plead. QED.

Hans

 

[wraith]

Because....???
See, wraith, here's where your argument falls down. After you have asserted a belief, you should then say why you believe it. So far, the only reason I can see for you beliving time/consciousness had to exist is that you can't imagine it not existing.

HA
...and you can?
When you cease to exist Tricky ( ) I want you to say "I perceieve no time!"

Uh huh. And F=MA, therefore Buddhism is true.

ahhh no, that doesnt flow

wraith says: whats "length" without consciousness?

Tricky: A consciousless dimension, like time.

If there was a square, how could you perceive it without Time?

I see no evidence for a cosmic consciousness, so I do not assume it exists. You assume there is a cosmic consciousness, but you provide no evidence. Which is more logical?

Listen Tricky, I think you know pretty dam well what my evidence is for a Higher Power!

CAR obeys YOU obeys TLOP!

How are you more conscious than TLOP without your precious double standard?

Yeah, you're right. I refuse to acknowledge that any of those things are true. My cult is funny that way.

anyone that places bets to lose..........

 

[wraith]

Timeless era, no. Timeless state, yes.

How long did this timeless state last for?