Logical? Deism.

[MRC_Hans]

Tricky

Have you ever done any creative writing? Well, according to you it is impossible, since nothing anyone does is creative. In fact, the word "creative" has no meaning in a fatalistic universe. What a dreary place that would be.

If you ask me, thats a damn silly thing to ask of somebody who has dreamed up his entire personal cosmology, and who doesn't seem to tell a truth if he can think of a lie

And Franko: Diversion and strawman again.

Hans

 

[Franko]

Bzzzzzt! Self-contradiction. You have more than once declared that you and Wraith are the same person. Now you say you are not. Which of those two mutually exclusive statements is a lie?

Actually it is YOU and the other A-Theists that have consistently accused the Wraith and myself of being the same person. Since we are both figments of your imagination and since we both realize that you fearful little mind can't handle the possibility that there is more than one logical deist, we just agree with whatever you boys say ...

Perhaps you can use the same magic powers that told you there was no "god" to determine whether the Wraith and myself actually exist?

If not, then why should I believe your powers worked on "god"?

You mean you can determine that god doesn't exist, but you can't tell me if I'm real, or the Wraith is real? That seems odd ... ?

 

[Franko]

MRC: (crazy A-Theist)
Nobody claimed it was magic or random, and you know it. What was demonstrated was that all not all decisions are based on percieved benefit.

How are you able to read the Wraith’s mind and “know” that he did not perceive it as beneficial? Could you please provide me with some examples of YOU making regular “choices” that were obviously perceived as non-beneficial by YOU?

I dont know about the games you play with your wife (but be careful not to be too predictable, she'll grow tired of you), but what was shown with "Wraith" was that "he" was able to pick a number without any possible knowledge of which number might be beneficial. A deterministic algorithm would have been foiled by that task.

Question begging.

If the answers are truly random and completely magical and unpredictable like You and Trixy and the other A-Theists claim, then why is it that my Wife can predict what my answers will be so much better than You can?

How do you account for that MRC? I thought it was all supernatural? How would some one familiar with me get a better score if it is all “magic”?

 

[Tricky]

Trixy, I will reply to your post, hopefully sometime tomorrow...
it's 00:06 over here and I need to round me up some zzzs

That's cool, wraith. come back when you are rested. I hope we can continue our discussion without interruption from the PLD.

 

[wraith]

As usual, Franko, you use a diversion and present a strawman instead of answering the question presented:

Why dont YOU just answer the question. Why can Franko's Wife predict something about Franko better than you can?

Bzzzzzt! Self-contradiction. You have more than once declared that you and Wraith are the same person. Now you say you are not. Which of those two mutually exclusive statements is a lie?

I like to switch to me "Franko" alias and watch the athiests run to the nearest shadow muhaha

but what was shown with "Wraith" was that "he" was able to pick a number without any possible knowledge of which number might be beneficial. A deterministic algorithm would have been foiled by that task.

What dont you get?
I just explained this!!

I PERCEIVED A BENEFIT to actually answer the question, and I PERCEIVED A BENEFIT to answer it properly. Notice how I didnt give an answer above 100 or below 1? I PERCEIVED A BENEFIT to "choose" my initial thought ie 33

Now according to you, if I said "think of a tangahelora" youre able to to think of a tangahelora.

According to you, if I said "think of a ship" your initial thought of a ship is evidence of free-will?

History. Do you think it was due to my "free-will" to understand english and maths?

 

[wraith]

Yes, here you go again with another one of your sad attempts to cover for the fact that you used free will and admitted it.

ahh
It was my MPB actually

All of those factors may have led to you choosing a number, but you still have not explained how they made you choose "33". Since you like analogies, it is kind of how TLOP work. They limit your choices, but they do not make the choice for you. The factors you mention above limited your choices to choosing a number between 1 and 100, but they did not make the choice. Sorry wraith. That dog won't hunt.

According to you, if you are brain dead, you are still able to "choose" numbers? TLOP has nothing to do with the selection right?

Ill say it again...

I perceived a benefit to "choose" my INITIAL THOUGHT.
Now if youre wondering where that initial though came from, it came from my HISOTRY.

How did I understand you?
Why did I want to listen to you?
WHy did I answer you?

If you said to me Trix, pick a number between 1 and 100 and if you "choose" correctly, Ill give you $1000, ill be thinking carefully, and not necessarily go with my initial thought[/B][/QUOTE]

wraith says: If I said to you "think of a fighter jet"
is your inital thought evidence for free-will?

Trix: Yes. I have a number of available options to think about. I choose one.

So your history had NOTHING to do with your "choice"???
It was your "choice" to perceive what a "jet" was?

No, my initial thought was something else (I'll tell you if you like). You lose your bet. Free will beats fatalism again.

Okay, since you ask nicely. I thought of a costumed super hero named TurboKid. I have no idea if such a fictional character has already been created by someone else. I just made it up in my mind because the letters looked a little bit like that. A combination of free will and imagination.

Actually, that does look like "turbokid" haha
You know Trix, that only helps my point...
Your mind tried to work out what "turbeokfld" meant, yet it looked like "turbokid" so you though what a "turbokid" looked like, probably a cartoon character (at least thats what I thought off lol)

Just suppose that you had no idea what "turbokid" meant. The word looked as if it was jumbled up. Would you still be thinking of fictional character?

Have you ever done any creative writing? Well, according to you it is impossible, since nothing anyone does is creative. In fact, the word "creative" has no meaning in a fatalistic universe. What a dreary place that would be.

OMG!!!!!!!!!!!
You obviosuly have NO idea on how Fate works...

 

[MRC_Hans]

How are you able to read the Wraith’s mind and “know” that he did not perceive it as beneficial?

No mind-reading needed. Tricky did not give any clue to what number might be benificial (in fact, there was no benefit). And Wraith did not state that he percieved anything beneficial about 33. "For no special reason".

Could you please provide me with some examples of YOU making regular “choices” that were obviously perceived as non-beneficial by YOU?

Beside the point as the purpose of this is to show that a decision can be made without access to information about benefit, and thus outside the scope of MPB. To make (for some reason) an unbenificial choice would still be within MPB scope.

Question begging.

If the answers are truly random and completely magical and unpredictable like You and Trixy and the other A-Theists claim,

Strawman. Nobody called them "truly random and completely magical and unpredictable". The claim was that the choice was made without access to benefit data. You claim to be a skeptic; this is a truely scientific way to test for MPB. To device a situation where no info on benefit is percievable, and see if a choice can still be made. Maybe Tricky's experiment is not perfect, but if you are a true skeptic as you claim, you will try to find a better experiement.

then why is it that my Wife can predict what my answers will be so much better than You can?

Totally irrelevant.

How do you account for that MRC? I thought it was all supernatural? How would some one familiar with me get a better score if it is all “magic”?

I don't need to account for it. There is nothing supernatural or magic in my cosmology.

Hans

 

[MRC_Hans]

Why dont YOU just answer the question. Why can Franko's Wife predict something about Franko better than you can?

Why should I answer it? What has it to do with anything? How should I know the answer? Mind-reading? --- Come on!

I like to switch to me "Franko" alias and watch the athiests run to the nearest shadow muhaha

Thats rich! First, Franko claims you're his sockpuppet. Then he claims you're not. Then you claim he's your sockpuppet. Now we're ready to believe anything you say

What dont you get?
I just explained this!!

I PERCEIVED A BENEFIT to actually answer the question, and I PERCEIVED A BENEFIT to answer it properly. Notice how I didnt give an answer above 100 or below 1? I PERCEIVED A BENEFIT to "choose" my initial thought ie 33

Yep, you percieved a benefit to provide a sensible answer, but you were able to think of a number without any information on benefit. So in choosing that particular number out of the available options (1-100) you could not use MPB. But you still arrived at a number. That's the point.

Now according to you, if I said "think of a tangahelora" youre able to to think of a tangahelora.

A what?

According to you, if I said "think of a ship" your initial thought of a ship is evidence of free-will?

Irrelevant

History. Do you think it was due to my "free-will" to understand english and maths?

If I have to be perfectly honest, I doubt that you really understand either . --- On a different note, I assume somebody did their best to teach you both. How well they succeeded, was to some degree a product of your free will.

Hans

 

[wraith]

Whether it lands heads or tails is based on my history? That certainly is an interesting proposition. Care to back it up with evidence. I have flipped numerous coins and they seem to show a random distribution of heads and tails. I guess my history changes dramatically every second.

Yeah Trix, I see coins flip themselves all the time

Yes, wraith, I know your catch phrase. But you still have not shown how the outcome of the coin flip is based on the past. I can think of ways you might argue this, but you haven't used them yet, and I'm not going to give you hints. Try thinking on your own.

OH BOY
The outcome IS based on the past...
Trix, YOU FLIPPED THE COIN!

If you made a coin that was double headed, youre saying that it may land tails up.

So one analogy fails and you must dodge the question by trying another one? As I say, most things are determined by MPB, but a few aren't. I have already shot down the "traffic light" scenario. Unlike you, I get tired of repeating myself.

Youve shot down nothing...
Im still waiting to see where you run red lights at "random"

If you had control in the sense of being able to order them around, yes. But if you had control in the sense making sure they obey the rules, no. You are proposing an entity that is able to "order atoms around". You have not shown anything to support this proposition.

CAR obeys ME obeys TLOP

without a double standard, how can you be more conscious than your car and TLOP?

I have no emotional attachment to this theory, but I have to admit it is well supported.

Dam right it's well supported. Well supported with double standards and magic aka ◊◊◊◊!

By the way, you live your whole life around this belief...I bet that you would be crushed if you found out that it was false

The reverse theory (consciousness makes matter) is not only unsupported but self-contradictory.

Self contradictory?
How do you figure?

It is one possibility that cosmologists have put forth. It is not a belief, because we have no evidence for it, however it is logically consistant. That doesn't mean it's true.

I'd probably call it a timeless "state", thus avoiding the self-contradiction of using a measurement of time (period) to describe timelessness.

Yeah, consciousness existing in timeless space? I dont think so

And where does that causal consciousness come from? You are merely adding another layer of mystery because you cannot acknowledge you have no explanation for the first layer. Somewhere in your creation story, you have to have something that doesn't have a cause. For Franko, it is the Progenitor Solipsist. For me it is the universe itself. What is it for you?

The PS ofcourse...
just how can consciousness exist without time and vice-versa?

And can you answer a question directly instead of making a non-sequitur? If dream matter is energy that we interpret as matter, what is energy that we interpret as energy? Is it "dream energy"?

I see you are trying to shove the whole "dream matter" issue under the table by not discussing it. I can't blame you, for it is a silly concept. However, you could be forthright and admit that you were just making it up. Somehow, I don't expect that.


That equation is for normal matter. As far as I know, there is no equation for "dream matter". Are you then admitting that dream matter is no different from ordinary matter? Why did you propose it then? Oh, right. Because you were cornered in the syllogism thing.

And anyone who would say that rocks are the only kind of matter that exists is a loony toon. Guess what, wraith. There are many kinds of matter, all with different properties. Also, there's a little thing called "evolution". Back to beginner's science class for you.

E=mc^2
Youre perceiving energy!
There is no "hard stuff"
thats why I call it "dream matter"
It's like a dream for you, because you hate the idea of consciousness creatiing matter

It would depend on how you define consciousness. Even one-celled animals are able to sense light. Are they conscious?

They would be alive but they wouldnt be self-aware

Then open a new window for me, wrath. Give me a demonstrable example of consciousness creating matter. I have already given you one for matter making consciousness, but since you have shown a remarkably poor memory, I will summarize again.

A human zygote becomes more conscious as it adds matter to it's neurologic system.

Which brings up another interesting question. When does the graviton enter a human? At conception? Are they all clustered around, each betting on one sperm? (They must be associated with the sperm, since we know that gravitons have gender and the sperm determines the baby's gender.) Does this mean that male gametes have gravitons but female ones do not?

Youre describing a correlation...that doesnt imply that matter creates consciousness....

according to you, if a rock became more massive, it may one day be conscious?

OH
and whats this "graviton entering a human" business?
YOU ARE THE GRAVITON PERCEIVING THIS REALITY/UNIVERSE

wraith says: If you were the sole consciousness in the universe, if you died, would a "tree" still exist?

Trix: First you would have to demonstrate that I was the sole consciousness in the universe. How would you do that?

or you could just answer the question

Okay, we have yet more info about "dream matter". It only exists if you think matter makes consciousness. Does this mean that for Logical Deists, there is no such thing as "dream matter"? Really wraith. Just admit you made it up and you can stop tap dancing. No one will think less of you, in fact, just the opposite.

No, to the LD there is only energy

And who genererates the "Higher Power"? And who generates the power that generates the "Higher Power", ad. infinitum? It's turtles all the way down, sonny.

Time....what else?

 

[wraith]

wraith says: Why dont YOU just answer the question. Why can Franko's Wife predict something about Franko better than you can?

HANS: Why should I answer it? What has it to do with anything? How should I know the answer? Mind-reading? --- Come on!

No, because SHE has MORE INFO...and that info would be worthless in a random universe

wraith says: What dont you get?
I just explained this!!
I PERCEIVED A BENEFIT to actually answer the question, and I PERCEIVED A BENEFIT to answer it properly. Notice how I didnt give an answer above 100 or below 1? I PERCEIVED A BENEFIT to "choose" my initial thought ie 33

HANS: Yep, you percieved a benefit to provide a sensible answer, but you were able to think of a number without any information on benefit. So in choosing that particular number out of the available options (1-100) you could not use MPB. But you still arrived at a number. That's the point.

So are you saying that if I had no idea what "1 - 100" meant (no information) I would have "choosen" "33" anyway?
Thats what youre saying...

wraith says: Now according to you, if I said "think of a tangahelora" youre able to to think of a tangahelora.

HANS: A what?

haha

my point exactly

wraith says: According to you, if I said "think of a ship" your initial thought of a ship is evidence of free-will?

HANS: Irrelevant

Thats what youre saying!
Disagreeing with yourself now?

wraith says?: History. Do you think it was due to my "free-will" to understand english and maths?

HANS: If I have to be perfectly honest, I doubt that you really understand either . --- On a different note, I assume somebody did their best to teach you both. How well they succeeded, was to some degree a product of your free will.

no, it depended on TLOP/FATE

I was simply obey TLOP
There is no "free-will"

 

[MRC_Hans]

No, because SHE has MORE INFO...and that info would be worthless in a random universe

Yes. Who talked about a random universe? Oh, wait! --- You did. The universe is not random, and it's not deterministic, it's probabilistic (thats in between, I know you have trouble grasping such a concept).

So are you saying that if I had no idea what "1 - 100" meant (no information) I would have "choosen" "33" anyway?
Thats what youre saying...

Uhh, didnt you say you understand English? I said you choose from the available options, which were 1-100. You had information about the possible range, but no information of which number WITHIN that range. What is it that's difficult to understand?

haha

my point exactly

What point?

Thats what youre saying!
Disagreeing with yourself now?

No.

no, it depended on TLOP/FATE

I was simply obey(sic) TLOP
There is no "free-will"

Well, you may blame it on tlop, but I think its because you did not do your homework.

Hans

 

[Tricky]

Yeah Trix, I see coins flip themselves all the time

OH BOY
The outcome IS based on the past...
Trix, YOU FLIPPED THE COIN!

Okay, I just flipped a coin. The present is based on the past. Did the coin come up heads or did it come up tails? Your contention is that the outcome was pre-determined. Prove it.

If you made a coin that was double headed, youre saying that it may land tails up.

You know I am saying no such thing. That is pitiful, wraith. You can do better.

Youve shot down nothing...
Im still waiting to see where you run red lights at "random"

Go search for it then. I'm not retyping all my evidence just so you can ignore it again.

without a double standard, how can you be more conscious than your car and TLOP?

You'll first have to give me evidence that TLOP are conscious. You have so far had a very bad record for providing evidence for this wild assertion. How many things without brains are conscious? I mean besides Franko.

Dam right it's well supported. Well supported with double standards and magic aka ◊◊◊◊!

You don't like the zygote to adult evidence? Well then tell me where the consciousness comes from instead of calling my evidence ◊◊◊◊. This is why you get hammered in debates.

By the way, you live your whole life around this belief...I bet that you would be crushed if you found out that it was false

LOL. You won't even bet on the outcome of a coin flip that you claim is pre-determined. But if evididence showed my belief to be wrong, I would happily adjust or abandon it. Show me the evidence.

Self contradictory?
How do you figure?

Because we all have consciousness. If that consciousness can make matter, then where is all the matter our consciousnesses are making in violation of the laws of physics?

Or can only one consciousness make matter? One consciousness that you have given no evidence for?

Yeah, consciousness existing in timeless space? I dont think so.

Yet LD posits consciousness (The PS)existing without anything else. Consciousness with no matter to store information. Consciousness that is, by any definition, magic.

The PS ofcourse...
just how can consciousness exist without time and vice-versa?

Time measures the sequence of events. It need not have consciousness around for events to occur. Your preliminary assumption that there must always be a consciousness keeps you from examining any other possibilites. Why must there be consciousness? Because you can't imagine a universe without it? I'd say that has more to do with your lack of imagination than with the way the universe works.

E=mc^2
Youre perceiving energy!
There is no "hard stuff"
thats why I call it "dream matter"
It's like a dream for you, because you hate the idea of consciousness creatiing matter

So my question remains. Does dream matter exist for Logical Deists? If it is my "hatred" for your idea that makes it "dream matter, then you don't have it. Plug that back into your syllogism, and you wind up with a contradiction again.

They would be alive but they wouldnt be self-aware.

You said none of the senses would exist without consciousness. Protozoa can sense, yet they are not conscious. Busted again.

Youre describing a correlation...that doesnt imply that matter creates consciousness....

It is a great deal more evidence than you have given. Would you tell me again the mechanism for consciousness creating matter? Oh, and don't forget the evidence.

according to you, if a rock became more massive, it may one day be conscious?

Only if the matter it was adding was neural matter. I never said that ALL matter creates consciousness. (Oh yes. How many rocks do you know that actually get larger?)

OH
and whats this "graviton entering a human" business?
YOU ARE THE GRAVITON PERCEIVING THIS REALITY/UNIVERSE

Duh. By your mythology, gravitons are souls and each human has exactly one. How does this graviton/soul get associated with a particular human. (And shouting won't help your argument.)

or you could just answer the question

Or you could ask a question that has something remotely to do with the topic at hand.D

No, to the LD there is only energy

So the LD does not and cannot affect the material world in any way? Well why didn't you say so in the first place?

Time....what else?

(sigh)... Do we have to do this drill again? Okay, wraith. What created time?

 

[Franko]

Tricky:
What created time?

Was Time created Tricky? If Time was created, then what was going on prior to it's creation -- a "Timeless period"? I thought you said there was no such thing?

How long did the "Timeless Period" last before Time was created?

 

[Tricky]

Was Time created Tricky? If Time was created, then what was going on prior to it's creation -- a "Timeless period"? I thought you said there was no such thing?

How long did the "Timeless Period" last before Time was created?

If time wasn't created then you are saying something can exist without a creator. If something can exist without a creator, why not the universe itself?

 

[Franko]

I can perceive of the possibility of a Universe not existing, but I have a lot of trouble trying to comprehend how it could be even possible for Time not to exist.

Since you seem to disagree I am sure you can explain it to us?

 

[Tricky]

I can perceive of the possibility of a Universe not existing, but I have a lot of trouble trying to comprehend how it could be even possible for Time not to exist.

Since you seem to disagree I am sure you can explain it to us?

What, again? Well okay.

How is time marked? It is marked by the sequence of things happening. It might be the turning of watch gears, the vibration of an atomic nucleus, the rotation of the earth or any other event. But if the universe does not exist, then time means nothing. There is no sequence of events because there are no events. There is no anything.

Admittedly, it is a difficult concept. I'm not sure if I completely believe it and I know I don't completely understand it, but I can grasp the concept, the same way as I can grasp the concept of infinity. Just as I don't need to "envision eternity" to understand what it means, I don't need to envision a timeless state to know what it means.

 

[Franko]

Franko:
I can perceive of the possibility of a Universe not existing, but I have a lot of trouble trying to comprehend how it could be even possible for Time not to exist.

Since you seem to disagree I am sure you can explain it to us?

Tricky:
What, again? Well okay.

How is time marked? It is marked by the sequence of things happening. It might be the turning of watch gears, the vibration of an atomic nucleus, the rotation of the earth or any other event. But if the universe does not exist, then time means nothing. There is no sequence of events because there are no events. There is no anything.

And how long (approximately) does this “no anything” last?

Admittedly, it is a difficult concept.

Special Pleads (logical fallacy) always are.

Tricky:
I'm not sure if I completely believe it and I know I don't completely understand it, but I can grasp the concept, the same way as I can grasp the concept of infinity. Just as I don't need to "envision eternity" to understand what it means, I don't need to envision a timeless state to know what it means.

I don’t think you know what a “Timeless Era” means, if you did then you could articulate exactly what it meant. You didn’t. All you did was make a special plead.

I doubt you truly comprehend “Infinity”, or “Eternity” either (not any better than he can draw a 4-sided triangle).

Explain infinity to us Trixy … What’s Infinity + 1?

 

[Tricky]

And how long (approximately) does this “no anything” last?

I dunno, we should have timed it with a stopwatch. Oops. Stopwatches didn't exist. Okay, let's time it by the movement of the stars. Oops, stars didn't exist. Okay, then let's time it by the increase in your intelligence. Well, that one still doesn't exist.

Special Pleads (logical fallacy) always are.

Especially to someone who knows the meaning of neither "special plead" nor "logical fallacy".

Originally posted by Franko
I don’t think you know what a “Timeless Era” means, if you did then you could articulate exactly what it meant. You didn’t. All you did was make a special plead.

I didn't say timeless era, I said timeless state, and I articulated exactly what it meant. Do not blame me because you are such a slow learner.

And again with the "special plead"? Why don't you tell us what you mean by that? I'm sure we're all anxious to know how The Lexicon twists the meaning of that term.

 

[Franko]

Trixy: (scumbag A-Theist)
I dunno, we should have timed it with a stopwatch. Oops. Stopwatches didn't exist.

So unless stopwatches exist -- time doesn't exist?

Are clocks required for time to exist Trixy?

Okay, let's time it by the movement of the stars. Oops, stars didn't exist.

Ohhh, so "Stars" are required for Time to exist?

Okay, then let's time it by the increase in your intelligence. Well, that one still doesn't exist.

Perhaps that's because I'm only a figment of your imagination?

Maybe there is no universe Trixy? Maybe just YOU magically appeared and you are imagining it all? Why is that a less likely explanation?

 

[wraith]

Okay, I just flipped a coin. The present is based on the past. Did the coin come up heads or did it come up tails? Your contention is that the outcome was pre-determined. Prove it.

Still claiming that the present is not based on the past?

You know I am saying no such thing. That is pitiful, wraith. You can do better..

Thats EXACTLY what youre saying.
The present is not based on the past.

You'll first have to give me evidence that TLOP are conscious. You have so far had a very bad record for providing evidence for this wild assertion. How many things without brains are conscious? I mean besides Franko.

CAR obeys ME obeys TLOP

it has been said multiple times

You don't like the zygote to adult evidence? Well then tell me where the consciousness comes from instead of calling my evidence ◊◊◊◊. This is why you get hammered in debates.

Why dont I like it?

LOL. You won't even bet on the outcome of a coin flip that you claim is pre-determined. But if evididence showed my belief to be wrong, I would happily adjust or abandon it. Show me the evidence.

By my knowledge of TLOP, I could rig the coin so it will always land on heads. You still want to bet?

Because we all have consciousness. If that consciousness can make matter, then where is all the matter our consciousnesses are making in violation of the laws of physics?

Or can only one consciousness make matter? One consciousness that you have given no evidence for?

Perhaps you could, in Time but...............

Yet LD posits consciousness (The PS)existing without anything else. Consciousness with no matter to store information. Consciousness that is, by any definition, magic.

Youre still assuming that matter creates consciousness is True...

Time measures the sequence of events. It need not have consciousness around for events to occur. Your preliminary assumption that there must always be a consciousness keeps you from examining any other possibilites. Why must there be consciousness? Because you can't imagine a universe without it? I'd say that has more to do with your lack of imagination than with the way the universe works.

What is "a sequence of events" when it is not perceived?
When do you perceive a sequence of events when youre in heavy sleep?

You said none of the senses would exist without consciousness. Protozoa can sense, yet they are not conscious. Busted again.

I was referring to things like rocks Tricky...the stuff that you think has the potential to become alive

wraith says: Can a rock become conscious?

Trix: Only if the matter it was adding was neural matter.

So when you add enough neural matter in some configuration, consciousness MAGICALLY appears?

Duh. By your mythology, gravitons are souls and each human has exactly one. How does this graviton/soul get associated with a particular human..

Where did my soul come from?
Im not sure about the actual mechanics, but it's linked to time

So the LD does not and cannot affect the material world in any way? Well why didn't you say so in the first place?

Matter does not create consciousness Trix

Do we have to do this drill again? Okay, wraith. What created time?

Was time created?