LDS

[Janadele]

... my question is really aimed at Janadele.

Who created Satan?

Two of my previous posts which answered your question are reposted below:

It is sad but true that Lucifer is "a son of the Morning" in other words one of our Heavenly Fathers elder sons. Jesus was the first born Spiritual child, and had progressed to Godhood even whilst still a Spiritual being without a resurrected immortal body. Adam, who was Michael in our pre-mortal existance, was younger than Lucifer but had also progressed further than him. Lucifer wanted more power and glory and envied Jesus and Adam. He was furious when Heavenly Father rejected his proposals and accepted Jesus and Adam and the Plan of Salvation they offered for our Heavenly Father's Spirit children. This envy and jealousy led to the rebellion of Lucifer and his followers against Heavenly Father, Jesus and their followers. We won and were rewarded with having the choice to obtain mortal bodies while Lucifer and his followers lost and were cast down to earth with no hope of progression. Instead they will continue to regress until their Spiritual bodies are no longer and they are back as in the begining as an Intelligence only. Frustrated and angry they do all they can to try to destroy our chances of further progression.

As previously noted, Lucifer (Satan, the Devil ) and his pre-mortal followers are all Spiritual children of our Heavenly Father, as are we.

 

[Empress]

jsfisher: I have no idea to what you are refering in the above post. I stand by my previous posts, which you have misunderstood either deliberately or accidently.

You still haven't explained why you state that your god does not create evil when it says right there in Isaiah that he does.

 

[Craig4]

The excerpts from the Joseph Smith Translation for which I provided the link, does not include Isaiah 45:7. You have clicked on the Holy Bible link which is the Authorized King James Version.

Where are the source documents he used in the translation?

 

[Janadele]

Odd that a prophet, seer and revelator didn't see that coming.

Rand, skyrider has previously addressed this question.

Ah, but he did see that "his own murder was coming": i.e., "When Joseph went to Carthage to deliver himself up to the pretended requirements of the law, two or three days previous to his assassination, he said: I am going like a lamb to the slaughter; but I am calm as a summer morning. . . . I shall die innocent, and it shall be said of me--he was murdered in cold blood" (D&C 135:4)

 

[skyrider44]

Odd that a prophet, seer and revelator didn't see that coming.

He did see it coming.

Please see my Post 3583 or read D&C 135:4.

 

[Craig4]

Ah, but he did see that "his own murder was coming": i.e., "When Joseph went to Carthage to deliver himself up to the pretended requirements of the law, two or three days previous to his assassination, he said: I am going like a lamb to the slaughter; but I am calm as a summer morning. . . . I shall die innocent, and it shall be said of me--he was murdered in cold blood" (D&C 135:4)

Actually, outside the LDS church we pretty much think he got whacked for doinking the wives of other people. If you go around doing the things that cause people to want to slit your throat, eventually someone is going to take you up on the offer. Perhaps if the dumb bastard had thought with the head between his ears more he would have lived longer.

 

[Slowvehicle]

I don't blame you for being selective in choosing sources that support your position (that's understandable). There are, however--as you know--other sources that effectively counter the data presented in your links.

When you speak of "healthy societies," I assume that encompasses life spans.
Several studies indicate that "religious people, such as Christians, tend to live longer than atheists and those who are not actively involved in religion." You can check sources at ( www.sunnyray.org/Who-lives-longer.htm)

I don't blame you for being selective in choosing sources that support your position (that's understandable). There are, however--as you know-- sources that actually present the studies they claim to be citing, instead of just making bald assertions.

Debaters who are credible tend to acknowledge opposing arguments, but they prevail by addressing those arguments and then defeating them.

You mean, like labeling any source that does not meet with your approval an "anti-mormon" source?

I cannot recall a single instance (and I may be wrong) in which you have acknowledged the legitimacy of even one aspect of an opposing point of view.

Perhaps you should provide a legitimate opposing point of view, on that addresses arguments rather than hand-waving. For instance: what sources (other than bald assertions by FAIR, presented on an ambiguously-worded chart) do you have for empirical evidence that has been discovered to support (for instance) horses, domestic cattle, domesticated barley, wheat, or steel, in the pre-Colombian Americas?

 

[JoeMorgue]

As you are aware, the Prophet Joseph Smith was murdered before he was able to complete the Translation.

How utterly convenient.

So God sent an angel to his prophet but then sent an assassin to kill the prophet before he was done prophetisizing but through some amazingly handy coincidence all the parts he wasn't done translating yet are the parts that explain away all the vile parts of the parts that he had already translated and you somehow now for certain that the parts he hadn't gotten around the translating yet didn't contradict or retcon the whole thing.

I do ever so much adore this "When I agree with my Holy Work it is the unquestionable and complete word of an unfailable God and whenever I come across something in my Holy Work that I simply can't reconcile with modern science or morality that part I just know was incomplete or badly translated of needs to be 'interpreted'." song and dance religious people have to go through to justify their holy works.

 

[Janadele]

You still haven't explained why you state that your god does not create evil when it says right there in Isaiah that he does.

Yes I have.

Unfortunately, there are many mistranslations in the Bible in use today, it is only true as far as it has been translated correctly.

Joseph Smith said: I believe the Bible as it read when it came from the pen of the original writers. Ignorant translators, careless transcribers, or designing and corrupt priests have committed many errors. [Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.327]

Free Agency is an integral part of Eternal Law and has been since the beginning, and will continue to be throughout the eternities. With freedom of choice for all, comes also the consequences of those choices for all.

 

[Craig4]

...snip
Debaters who are credible tend to acknowledge opposing arguments, but they prevail by addressing those arguments and then defeating them. I cannot recall a single instance (and I may be wrong) in which you have acknowledged the legitimacy of even one aspect of an opposing point of view.

You really need to put this in perspective. You believe that an all powerful, all knowing being found a pervert and con artist and decided that he was going to give him these plates to translate. You also believe this all powerful, all knowing being told him a bunch of stuff that wasn't true (though you think it is but it's not worth going on about) for reasons lacking an adequate explanation. You further believe that this all powerful, all knowing being told the pervert con artist that he should have sex with his followers daughters and wives.

Do you not see how absurd this is? You must believe in an all powerful, all knowing being that smokes a lot of hash and drinks the bong water. What kind of an idiot is your all powerful, all knowing being? What possible validity could there be to your point of view? There is nothing here worth of recognition. How could you possibly think that Rand Fan's views and yours could be approached with anything resembling equality?

 

[RandFan]

He did see it coming.

Please see my Post 3583 or read D&C 135:4.

This is me acknowledging your point. Yes, you did make that claim. Now, remember that I did.

A.) Not much of prediction considering how much trouble he was in. B.) My point was that the prophet, seer and revelator was unable to finish his inspired translation due to the fact that he did not know he was going to die.

 

[jsfisher]

As you are aware, the Prophet Joseph Smith was murdered before he was able to complete the Translation.

Are you aware how much Smith had completed before his murder?

Are you aware that the bulk of his translation work was completed 10 years before his murder?

Are you aware that the LDS Church has a complete copy of Smith's manuscripts and documents for the Inspired Version, but just sits on it without publishing a bible complete with all of Smith's revisions?

Are you aware that the little bit the LDS Church offers on its web site as "study notes" is just that, only a little bit of Smith's work?

 

[Janadele]

Joseph was murdered before completing his translation of the Bible.
Some excerpts available: http://www.lds.org/scriptures/jst?lang=eng

The incomplete Translation in entirety may be purchased at Deseret or Seagull Bookshops.

As above.

 

[jsfisher]

jsfisher: I have no idea to what you are refering in the above post. I stand by my previous posts, which you have misunderstood either deliberately or accidently.

Really? I thought I was reasonably direct, but let us try again, any way.

The excerpts from the Joseph Smith Translation for which I provided the link, does not include Isaiah 45:7. You have clicked on the Holy Bible link which is the Authorized King James Version.

You may two assertions. First, the link you had provided to the LDS web site did not include text for Isaiah 45:7. This statement is true. The link was also entirely irrelevant since it provides no useful information whatsoever to the topic at hand, namely IV for Isaiah 45:7.

You aren't under the ridiculous impression the link you provided was the full and complete authority for the IV Bible, where you? Although the LDS Church has all the material, it hasn't yet published much of it. Fortunately, it wasn't the only copy. (Heck, it isn't even the original copy.)

Second, you stated flatly I'd clicked on a link for a KJV rendition of Isaiah 45:7. I did not. You made a wild guess, and you were wrong.


Now, is there something unclear in any of that?

 

[Janadele]

Obviously totally unclear. As I enquired earlier what link did you follow?

I have already posted twice now that the incomplete Joseph Smith Translation in entirety may be purchased at Deseret or Seagull Bookshops. It is not published by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints nor is it included as official LDS Scripture. This is because Joseph was murdered before completing and releasing the Translation, and the manuscript, though preserved, was not in the safe keeping of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

 

[deaman]

All Christian Scriptures in original form have the same source of inspiration.

Yes, humans.

 

[jsfisher]

Obviously totally unclear.

That would lead many to believe you were being completely disingenuous.

As I enquired earlier what link did you follow?

Multiple, actually. Plus an ebook version of the IV Bible. Give this link a try.

I have already posted twice now that the incomplete Translation in entirety may be purchased at Deseret or Seagull Bookshops.

Yes, you have. One might think you were a stockholder. Did you know there are other publishers out there, too?

 

[Janadele]

I am unaware of any other publishers of the said version, nor am I aware of any link to the said version approved by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints other than the one I provided.

 

[jsfisher]

I am unaware of any other publishers of the said version.

This surprises no one.

By the way, any comments on that whole plagiarism thing?

 

[deaman]

Janadele, how come you don't answer any of my direct questions, with a direct answer?

Look, you are an intelligent human being who believes in a god.

I am an intelligent human being that thinks god is just a made up fairy tale.

Here is another direct question which (I guess) you'll probably sidestep as well.

Why are there so many different versions of the First Visitation?


If I ever stand before a god and he askes me why I didn't believe in him, I'll just say look at the actions of the Mormons. How could I possibly believe in an obviously fake Abrahamic account, a guy who had 27 wives, a church that was racist, a church that would murder because they thought their god wanted it that way, and on and on.....

Look at the murder, and lying, and greed, and deviousness, of all the churches.

If there were a righteous god, then everyone will get exactly what they deserve.

If he's not a righteous god, then he is not worth worshipping.

Please, in the name of Jesus Christ, ask the Father in Heaven, by the power of The Holy Spirit, to make his love and presence known to everyone here who has no reason to believe.

According to scripture, you should be able to do what Jesus did, and more. please show your gods love now.