LDS

[TjW]

Human language is imperfect, so no text in human language can be transcendently perfect and complete, however that does not preclude the text originating from a perfect Being.

Joseph Smith said: I believe the Bible as it read when it came from the pen of the original writers. Ignorant translators, careless transcribers, or designing and corrupt priests have committed many errors. [Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.327]

It's a shame God wasn't competent when making his self-portrait.

 

[pakeha]

Of course it was a mis-translation. If you had bothered to check The Inspired Version of the Bible, you would have noted that Joseph Smith completely revised the passage to correct the blatant mistakes:

Isiah 45:7 (inspired version)

I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I the Lord do all these things.​

Note the subtle differences.

It's the font, right?

 

[skyrider44]

Hmmm... guess he didn't see that his own murder was coming. Prophetic lapse and no help from the angels!

Ah, but he did see that "his own murder was coming": i.e., "When Joseph went to Carthage to deliver himself up to the pretended requirements of the law, two or three days previous to his assassination, he said: I am going like a lamb to the slaughter; but I am calm as a summer morning. . . . I shall die innocent, and it shall be said of me--he was murdered in cold blood" (D&C 135:4)

 

[Janadele]

Of course it was a mis-translation. If you had bothered to check The Inspired Version of the Bible, you would have noted that Joseph Smith completely revised the passage to correct the blatant mistakes:

Isiah 45:7 (inspired version)

I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I the Lord do all these things.​

Note the subtle differences.

What link are you following ? As far as I am aware Isiah 45:7 was not included in the sections of the Bible translated by the Prophet Joseph Smith.

 

[zooterkin]

It's the font, right?

And subtle changes in the punctuation.

 

[Janadele]

Those 13 sections were REALLY important so God wrote them down again just to make sure we wouldn't forget.

All Christian Scriptures in original form have the same source of inspiration.

 

[jsfisher]

What link are you following ?

Surely you must have your own reference for The Inspired Version, no? What does your version have for Isaiah 45:7? Does it disagree with what I provided?

 

[Pup]

I think you missing my point- a scam is a scam.
Are you really justifying a scam by saying others do it?
Do you really think that's an intellectually honest approach?

No, I'm saying they're both equal, as in equally wrong.

What I'm trying to get across here is the the comparison we should be making here is not to another religion (after all, seriously, who really cares?) but to other scams.

That's the heart of our disagreement, I guess. I think that other religions are scams. Doesn't matter if it's a Nigerian promising a million dollars or a preacher promising eternal life, same thing. It's a way of getting things from others by offering promises one can't deliver.

Since other religions are the most similar scams, seems reasonable to use them for comparison.

Personally, I think it's well within the realm of discussion, since the negative reaction the LDS church got from other believers became a significant factor in the church's development and history.

A very good point!
Are you talking about the negative reaction to Smith's 'translations'?

Yes, of course. When one went out to have a conversion experience--which in itself was normal enough for the time--you weren't supposed to come back and report, "hey, God told me you're all wrong. Ima start my own religion." It all went downhill from there--because Smith was moving in on power that other preachers had already staked out for themselves and that their followers had bought into emotionally.

When I stated earlier the witching stones were used to corrupt the bible, I was cramming all the, shall not suffer a witch/no more prophets/reformed Egyptian BoA Claptrap.

I understend the bible is imaginary, but to believers, messing with the bible is immoral.

Thank you! The bold part was my point. I'd expect only believers would think that that one item on the list is evil, while I'd hope that both non-believers and believers would think all the rest are. In other words, one of the things was not like the others. Whew. Not really that complicated.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Human language is imperfect, so no text in human language can be transcendently perfect and complete, however that does not preclude the text originating from a perfect Being.

Joseph Smith said: I believe the Bible as it read when it came from the pen of the original writers. Ignorant translators, careless transcribers, or designing and corrupt priests have committed many errors. [Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.327]

But wait... the Mormon Faith can't fall back on the "Our holy works have been badly translated/transcribed so we have to 'interpret' them" copout.

Your religious works aren't thousands of years old and haven't been translated or transcribed.

You believe that Joseph Smith received Golden Plates directly from God and translated them himself into the form we know have. There is no place where all these "imperfects" could have been introduced unless you admit that either God's instructions to Joseph Smith were faulty or Joseph Smith's translation was faulty.

In the case of Mormonism we're only two people deep in the game of Telephone. You don't get to claim "Purple Monkey Dishwasher" at this point.

 

[skyrider44]

God is not necessary for morality and healthy societies.

Society without God: What the Least Religious Nations Can Tell Us About Contentment

Good Without God: What a Billion Nonreligious People Do Believe

I don't blame you for being selective in choosing sources that support your position (that's understandable). There are, however--as you know--other sources that effectively counter the data presented in your links.

When you speak of "healthy societies," I assume that encompasses life spans.
Several studies indicate that "religious people, such as Christians, tend to live longer than atheists and those who are not actively involved in religion." You can check sources at (www.sunnyray.org/Who-lives-longer.htm).

Debaters who are credible tend to acknowledge opposing arguments, but they prevail by addressing those arguments and then defeating them. I cannot recall a single instance (and I may be wrong) in which you have acknowledged the legitimacy of even one aspect of an opposing point of view.

 

[Janadele]

Surely you must have your own reference for The Inspired Version, no? What does your version have for Isaiah 45:7? Does it disagree with what I provided?

The excerpts from the Joseph Smith Translation for which I provided the link, does not include Isaiah 45:7. You have clicked on the Holy Bible link which is the Authorized King James Version.

 

[jsfisher]

...You can check sources at (www.sunnyray.org/Who-lives-longer.htm)....

What sources? I didn't see any, just the same bare assertion you made.

 

[sackett]

Bingo

...The LDS is based on a demonstrable falsification perpetrated in the 19th century.

I'm genuinely curious about the mentality of people who have fallen for this particular hoax....

Exactly the subject we can most fruitfully explore. I think there's a real and pressing need to figure out the mechanisms of gullibility in general, with the LDS as a good initial laboratory.

I said a pressing need, and here's why: There are 6 billion+ people in the world, increasingly interconnected and utterly exposed to charlantry. We live in a golden age of fraud!

Think what Joe Smith could have done if he'd had Facebook. Or even a 500,000-watt Mexican radio station and a bulk mailing license.

 

[jsfisher]

The excerpts from the Joseph Smith Translation for which I provided the link, does not include Isaiah 45:7.

True enough, the link you provided was of no use whatsoever.

You have clicked on the Holy Bible link which is the Authorized King James Version.

Nope. I quoted directly from The Inspired Version of the Bible by Joseph Smith. You know, the one that has God speaking in the first person in Genesis, that one.


Nonetheless, you have recognized that the KJV's Isaiah 45:7 is in conflict with your earlier statement. Good for you! However, now that you have been told the JST version is absolutely no different, will you be re-spinning?

 

[Janadele]

jsfisher: I have no idea to what you are refering in the above post. I stand by my previous posts, which you have misunderstood either deliberately or accidently.

 

[RandFan]

I don't blame you for being selective in choosing sources that support your position (that's understandable). There are, however--as you know--other sources that effectively counter the data presented in your links.

When you speak of "healthy societies," I assume that encompasses life spans.
Several studies indicate that "religious people, such as Christians, tend to live longer than atheists and those who are not actively involved in religion." You can check sources at (www.sunnyray.org/Who-lives-longer.htm).

Debaters who are credible tend to acknowledge opposing arguments, but they prevail by addressing those arguments and then defeating them. I cannot recall a single instance (and I may be wrong) in which you have acknowledged the legitimacy of even one aspect of an opposing point of view.

You desperately need to go look in the mirror. You are projecting.

In any event, A.) I followed your link and cannot find its source for the data. That's always a big red flag. Note that I provide a lot of sources and I check that they are reliable sources. B.) You accuse me of cherry picking and you cherry pick a source that does not provide a source for the data. C.) There is a strong correlation between religion and poverty. Though that wasn't my purpose of posting those links. D.) It's not my job to present a counter argument to my argument. That is the job of those who disagree. That's the whole point of a dialectic. E.) Most importantly, my sources that you reference are to falsify Janedele's claim that secularism is correlated with immorality. That's simply not true. Nations that are secular have less crime than we do. They have equivalent higher HDI ratings. F.) In this thread I have apologized twice. Once to you when I acknowledged one of your claims (see this post). And again when another poster, jsfisher, pointed out that I made a false claim. I checked, he was right, so I withdrew the claim and apologized. That's twice skyrider.

Don't focus on me. That is against forum rules. Focus on my arguments.

 

[pakeha]

No, I'm saying they're both equal, as in equally wrong.

Pup, I think you missed several of my posts along the way.

That's the heart of our disagreement, I guess. I think that other religions are scams. Doesn't matter if it's a Nigerian promising a million dollars or a preacher promising eternal life, same thing. It's a way of getting things from others by offering promises one can't deliver.

Since other religions are the most similar scams, seems reasonable to use them for comparison.

Actually, not.
The LDS is surprisingly similar to any of the more imaginative 419 scams I've dealt with and that's why I underline this point.

ETA. If you like I can explain the wash-wash scam to you. Elaborate, convincing and in several cases, deadly.

Yes, of course. When one went out to have a conversion experience--which in itself was normal enough for the time--you weren't supposed to come back and report, "hey, God told me you're all wrong. Ima start my own religion." It all went downhill from there--because Smith was moving in on power that other preachers had already staked out for themselves and that their followers had bought into emotionally.

Now, Pup, put some distance from the agendas of other 19th century religions.
Their agendas don't apply to our discussion whatsoever.
Remember?
I'm calling upon Mormons to explain how they justify any belief in the sacrality of a demonstrated scam.

Thank you! The bold part was my point. I'd expect only believers would think that that one item on the list is evil, while I'd hope that both non-believers and believers would think all the rest are. In other words, one of the things was not like the others. Whew. Not really that complicated.

Pup, your strawman argument is losing any charm it might have had when you first presented it.
Who ever said only the 'translation' scam was evil?

I'm honestly surprised you don't acknowledge the vileness of Smith's scam- the level of deceit and dishonesty the man exhibited with that 'translation' of the papyrii should scream out to any academic.

I don't blame you for being selective in choosing sources that support your position (that's understandable). There are, however--as you know--other sources that effectively counter the data presented in your links.

When you speak of "healthy societies," I assume that encompasses life spans.
Several studies indicate that "religious people, such as Christians, tend to live longer than atheists and those who are not actively involved in religion." You can check sources at (www.sunnyray.org/Who-lives-longer.htm).

Debaters who are credible tend to acknowledge opposing arguments, but they prevail by addressing those arguments and then defeating them. I cannot recall a single instance (and I may be wrong) in which you have acknowledged the legitimacy of even one aspect of an opposing point of view.

What sources? I didn't see any, just the same bare assertion you made.

That was my experience, too, jsfisher.

Exactly the subject we can most fruitfully explore. I think there's a real and pressing need to figure out the mechanisms of gullibility in general, with the LDS as a good initial laboratory.

I said a pressing need, and here's why: There are 6 billion+ people in the world, increasingly interconnected and utterly exposed to charlantry. We live in a golden age of fraud!

Think what Joe Smith could have done if he'd had Facebook. Or even a 500,000-watt Mexican radio station and a bulk mailing license.

I quite agree, sackett.
I'm so glad someone understood what I'm talking about here.

 

[Cleon]

The excerpts from the Joseph Smith Translation for which I provided the link, does not include Isaiah 45:7. You have clicked on the Holy Bible link which is the Authorized King James Version.

So, when "translating" the Bible, Smith just decided to skip some bits?

 

[Janadele]

As you are aware, the Prophet Joseph Smith was murdered before he was able to complete the Translation.

 

[RandFan]

As you are aware, the Prophet Joseph Smith was murdered before he was able to complete the Translation.

Odd that a prophet, seer and revelator didn't see that coming.