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Janadele said:
Everyone born to mortality on this earth is an actual Spiritual child of our Heavenly Father. Those who in mortality choose to follow Lucifer, who is known as "the father of all lies" are then classified among the wicked, and henceforth symbolically referred to as having Lucifer as their father.
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And this god person picked a pervert con artist to tell us this? Are you sure you want to stick with that. It's more than a little silly.
 
Slowvehicle said:
How is that not a simple statement of, "I like it, therefore it must be true"?



*sigh* So, what created this "creator"?



Seems as if you, in fact, demonstrably were.



So, what created the "creator" you postulate? ({[And what created the creator of the "creator" you postulate?] And what created the creator of the creator of the "creatator" you postulate?} And what created the creator of the creator of the creator of the "creator"...)

It's Hume-ception!

Or is it "creators all the way down"?

How does postulating infinite regression do anything but set questions at one or more remove, without answering them?
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Have at them, mate!
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RandFan said:
To follow this logic we must accept that theists could simply be told by god to rape and kill children and they would believe that they would be happy to do so.
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Well, there's the story, put forward as a good example, of Abraham and Isaac...

I've argued morality with many theists and none have said that they would suddenly think it okay to torture and kill children simply because god said it was okay.
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I think in practice, a few would (the Jonestown massacre for example), while most would switch to another religion.
 
Slowvehicle said:
...and this answers my question about infinite regression...how?
Seriously: why postulate a "creator" of time and space?
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Psychologically, I can see the attractiveness on two fronts:

It provides an answer to the question: "where did we all come from?" which makes the followers satisfied and happy.

And it means my god is more powerful than any other god, because he's the big daddy who created everything, so nobody else can claim to be responsible for anything you have, because he created it all, so you'd better bow down and worship me, er, I mean, him--the god I'm representing.

It's my understanding that the LDS church leans toward the infinite regression concept, with Jesus being the god of this earth, but with a hint that there are gods in family units with other earths, stretching backward and forward in both directions.
 
Jomante said:
Some of the questions you have been asking suggests you don't have kids. I am not stating you don't, just that some of these are things that I recognize as a parent.

For instance, when my kids have done something I've told them not to do and I know it, I ask them anyway to give them a chance to 1) come clean and show me they won't try to deceive me about it, and 2) explain their actions.

And how many times have I pretended that the kids were "hiding" from me when I could see then. "Where are youuuuu? Come out, come out wherever you are?" Of course, I wasn't planning on inflicting mortality on them when I found them...usually just tickling, so that doesn't really apply to this situation. Maybe god was just being sarcastic. "Oh boy, Adam is hiding behind that bush and his feet are sticking out. He's got a lot to learn. Alright. 'ADAM, WHERE ART THOU?'"

On the tree of life, I just figured that it was something you had to eat from all of the time, not a one-time-and-you-are-immortal type thing. With that, it made sense that restricting them from the tree of life did condemn them to die. And satan did lie to them because he said they wouldn't. Yes, he also told them some truths. That's how the story goes, he mixes lies and truths together. No different than most people.

There are consequences, and in this fairy tale, god laid out the consequences for disobedience and still left the cookie jar within reach. As a parent, I do let my kids fail sometimes. It teaches them that there can be consequences for actions. I'm hoping they'll learn the lessons with small consequences before they learn it with large consequences. Like if you leave your quarter lying around, it might disappear. Then if my child loses the quarter, the lesson is learned early on and only lost a quarter instead of leaving a 20 dollar bill lying around and losing it.

So, at least this part of the fairy tale is actually consistent with what parents would do.
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And when your children fail you curse them and throw them out of the house, right?
 
Janadele said:
Time in the Garden of Eden was eternal time... "a day unto the Lord, after his manner of reckoning, it being one thousand years according to the time appointed unto that whereon thou standest. "

Our earth time of a thousand years is but a day in the Lords time.
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You have simply repeated the very post I was questioning, with a minor tweak.
I repeat:
That's not eternal. It's rather a long time, but not eternal.
What does the hilited mean? Was something lost in translation?
 
Jomante said:
Good/Evil are subjective. So maybe the mothers/fathers thought of god as evil as their babies are slaughtered. Of course, my kids think I'm evil when I send them to timeout. But what about from the perspective of god. If you are an eternal spirit, death is not punishment, it is a transition. Now if you don't have a spirit then death may be evil, I don't know. If RandFan created something and then chooses to destroy it, is that evil? Only to those who subjectively think it is.
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So it's OK for me to kill my one month old baby?
 
RandFan said:
And that is the problem that you are failing to address. What makes something moral? If it is simply what god says it is then it is convention and we have no moral conscience other than to follow god's rules. I know of no theist who believes that they are not possessed of the moral sense to determine right from wrong. I know of no theist that believes that morality is just convention. Further, you are conflating theistic objective morality and philosophical objective morality.

Again, what makes something immoral (evil)? Could you really convince a theist that torturing and killing children will make them happy if god says to torture and kill children?
To follow this logic we must accept that theists could simply be told by god to rape and kill children and they would believe that they would be happy to do so. I've argued morality with many theists and none have said that they would suddenly think it okay to torture and kill children simply because god said it was okay.
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The Inquisition tells us that there's no problem getting theists to torture and kill men, women and children.
 
Pup said:
Psychologically, I can see the attractiveness on two fronts:

It provides an answer to the question: "where did we all come from?" which makes the followers satisfied and happy.

And it means my god is more powerful than any other god, because he's the big daddy who created everything, so nobody else can claim to be responsible for anything you have, because he created it all, so you'd better bow down and worship me, er, I mean, him--the god I'm representing.

It's my understanding that the LDS church leans toward the infinite regression concept, with Jesus being the god of this earth, but with a hint that there are gods in family units with other earths, stretching backward and forward in both directions.
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Well put. TYVM.
 
Janadele said:
The Godhead of this earth... our Heavenly Father ( the actual Father of our Spiritual body.) Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit... are each subject to Eternal Law as are we all. Revelation from God, and the Gospel of Jesus Christ is always compatible with Eternal Law.

We each existed as an Intelligence of varying degrees of ability and power, previous to obtaining our Spiritual body. This body grew to maturity whilst housing our Intelligence, which also continued increasing in knowledge according to our diligence and righteousness.

In order to further progress, and receive an Immortal Resurrected body in which our Intelligence and Spiritual body will dwell, we choose to come to this earth on probation... to be judged on, and to take the consequences of, our choices.

Because of our imperfections we needed a redeemer, Jesus Christ offered and was accepted.
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Then, unfortunately, His truth was lost til Joe Smith came along and dug it up.
 
tsig said:
The Inquisition tells us that there's no problem getting theists to torture and kill men, women and children.
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Fair point, so, if I were to ask a theist today if they thought the inquisitions were moral do you think they would agree? I will happily agree that given certain cultural dynamics theists can be made to do terrible things (hell, just about any human can be made to do certain things under the right conditions, see The Killing Fields, Soviet Purges, Holocaust, etc.). But I think it fair to judge them in the light of their times and by those dynamics. But there is the thing, how many theists do you think you can find that would be perfectly happy to torture and murder a child if god asked them to? No qualms whatsoever?
 
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tsig said:
And when your children fail you curse them and throw them out of the house, right?
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Well, I chucked that claim right out the door since I actually have two kids, and that relation of experience made me believe Jomante is not a parent. I have two wee girlies ages 7 and 10. I enjoy very much the diverse and wild conversions we have. I would never engage in the deceptive behaviour Jomante suggests. I am always meticulously honest in everything I discuss with them.

Jomante seems to think, lying to your children is a good thing.
 
jsfisher said:
I concede this point. In my haste, I misread the chapter from Moses and came to a conclusion not actually supported by the text. Odd, though the another confirmed the conclusion. So, no matter what we are left with the question who was Satan's father?
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As previously noted, Lucifer (Satan, the Devil ) and his pre-mortal followers are all Spiritual children of our Heavenly Father, as are we.
 
Janadele said:
As previously noted, Lucifer (Satan, the Devil ) and his pre-mortal followers are all Spiritual children of our Heavenly Father, as are we.
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That means that we're spiritual brothers/sisters of Satan.
 
abaddon said:
Well, I chucked that claim right out the door since I actually have two kids, and that relation of experience made me believe Jomante is not a parent. I have two wee girlies ages 7 and 10. I enjoy very much the diverse and wild conversions we have. I would never engage in the deceptive behaviour Jomante suggests. I am always meticulously honest in everything I discuss with them.

Jomante seems to think, lying to your children is a good thing.
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Maybe she's trying to inoculate them against believers at an early age.:)
 
Janadele said:
As previously noted, Lucifer (Satan, the Devil ) and his pre-mortal followers are all Spiritual children of our Heavenly Father, as are we.
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So I have a question. How does God (all powerful, all good, all knowing, and so forth) have a vastly less powerful arch-nemesis?

God should be able to defeat Satan, no? So any evil that Satan is the cause of God must be okay with. Unless Satan is as powerful or nearly as powerful as God, which of course carries its own questions.
 
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