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Foster Zygote said:
Below are two images.

One represents the universe as it was known to those who created gods like YHWH. It is a concept in which we can easily imagine the boundaries of the universe ringing with the mighty footsteps of the great gods, who concern themselves with the behavior of the men and women who grovel at their feet, judging them and holding them accountable to their divine standards of morality.

The other image is called the Bolshoi Simulation, and it represents a slice of the observable universe as we know it today. The bright specks that you see aren't stars. They aren't even galaxies. They are gigantic clusters of galaxies. In this universe, gods who are claimed to concern themselves with what people eat, who they have sex with, or whether or not they prostrate themselves and assure the mighty gods of just how powerful and glorious they are, are revealed for the anthropomorphic conceits that they really are. In this universe, even the gods of men are lost in the unimaginable vastness, becoming every bit as insignificant on the grand scale as we, their creators.
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Love this - very succinct
 
Janadele said:
Shame on you Rand, you know better than this.

Everyone who ever lived on this earth will be judged according to the circumstances of their life, their choices, actions and their pre mortal existence.

If free agency is taken away, then mortality is no longer a trial on which judgement can be made.
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It is immoral to kill an innocent child. Period. There is no excuse for killing children. According to you it's not enough to kill the children, god tortures them with disease because they are going to heaven. Isn't that the justification for pedophile priests?

Shame on anyone who doesn't understand that killing children is immoral.

If you would always intervene to save a child in danger then your morality is superior to his. That's a fact.
 
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Janadele said:
The Lord has but one Prophet who speaks for Him to the world, even though the twelve apostles and two counselors of the LDS Church are also Prophets, Seers and Revelators it is only the President of the LDS Church through whom the Lord speaks and who is referred to as the Prophet.

Lucifer deceives many by using his powers for good as well as evil, and seeks to confuse and imitate so that many are therefore not able to recognise the true Prophet of God from the deceivers.
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How would I recognize a true Prophet of God?
 
Hokulele said:
Well, I don't know if I would call him a misogynist, exactly... ;)

Sexist, definitely.
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Well, to be fair, everyone was sexist in the nineteenth century. Even God apparently.

It seems God also moves (mysteriously) with the times. Or just after.

With a lot of religions he also often accepts the findings of scientists, even if he does so a bit grudgingly.
 
Janadele said:
Rand:
Cause and effect. Choice and consequence. Allowing free agency to enable there to be a trial.

This life is but a blip in our Eternal Progression.
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When a murderer kills a child he steals the child's free agency.

The argument is a big fail. Only those who kill others first are guaranteed free will. Murdered children? Not so much.
 
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Janadele said:
I am glad you are posting in this thread Pup :) Why has not your loving wife been able to bring you into the fold. You know how much it would mean to her.
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I won't speak for him but perhaps in a desire for intellectual honesty. To be willingly taken into a fraud would not be honest.
 
I'm not sure where you're getting this idea that the bit about the barley, horses and cows in the New World is somehow periphery. Either there was cultivated barley or there was not. If there was not there is not other explanation than the "revelation" is a lie.
 
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Craig4 said:
To start with they'd probably get the history right. That would pretty well rule out Smith.
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I'd say as a general case of this, they should be able to tell you falsifiable things that turn out to be true, and that they would have no other way to know than divine revelation. In the case of the book of mormon, the things provided as statements of divine revelation are things that smith could not have known and are falsifiable, but they turn out to be false when you actually go check.

Luckily for conmen such as these, the average person is too lazy to actually check. People don't even bother typing claims into google before repeating them as fact.

Just as an example, I keep getting a forward in my email today claiming that the writer has uncovered secrets showing that margarine was invented as a poisonous substance 'one molecule away from plastic' intended as a supplement to fatten turkeys and then fraudulently marketed to humans.

That's a pretty good example of a divine revelation. Secret documents, an implied conspiracy, bad guys, good guys, a supposedly useful claim, horrible death for the unbeliever, it's got it all, condensed into one short, greasy email chain letter.

A brief google (actually didn't have to google it, but for the sake of argument assume I did) tells me that margarine was invented in 1869, in response to a challenge by Napoleon III to develop a butter substitute. A bit of research (again, didn't really have to, but for the sake of argument, let's assume I went to a library and read up on catalytic hydrogenation of lipids) tells me that in the modern day softer fats are hydrogenated and used to take the place of the original fatty acids extracted from tallow.

The only thing I could find that actually did pan out was the claim that margerine is artificially colored. That's not enough to return the article as a whole to the realm of truth, any more than a pseudo-biblical 'and so it came to pass' is enough to return an imaginary tale about some imaginary happenings in some non-existent geographical areas to the realm of truth.
 
Andrew Wiggin said:
I'd say as a general case of this, they should be able to tell you falsifiable things that turn out to be true, and that they would have no other way to know than divine revelation. In the case of the book of mormon, the things provided as statements of divine revelation are things that smith could not have known and are falsifiable, but they turn out to be false when you actually go check.

Luckily for conmen such as these, the average person is too lazy to actually check. People don't even bother typing claims into google before repeating them as fact.

Just as an example, I keep getting a forward in my email today claiming that the writer has uncovered secrets showing that margarine was invented as a poisonous substance 'one molecule away from plastic' intended as a supplement to fatten turkeys and then fraudulently marketed to humans.

That's a pretty good example of a divine revelation. Secret documents, an implied conspiracy, bad guys, good guys, a supposedly useful claim, horrible death for the unbeliever, it's got it all, condensed into one short, greasy email chain letter.

A brief google (actually didn't have to google it, but for the sake of argument assume I did) tells me that margarine was invented in 1869, in response to a challenge by Napoleon III to develop a butter substitute. A bit of research (again, didn't really have to, but for the sake of argument, let's assume I went to a library and read up on catalytic hydrogenation of lipids) tells me that in the modern day softer fats are hydrogenated and used to take the place of the original fatty acids extracted from tallow.

The only thing I could find that actually did pan out was the claim that margerine is artificially colored. That's not enough to return the article as a whole to the realm of truth, any more than a pseudo-biblical 'and so it came to pass' is enough to return an imaginary tale about some imaginary happenings in some non-existent geographical areas to the realm of truth.
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Yes, to all. I was just taking an easy shot at Smith largely for my own amusement.
 
Craig4 said:
The problem is that your explanations just aren't good enough. The quality of your argument isn't good enough.
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It beggars belief that anyone could sincerely think they are, but that seems to be the defining characteristic of the fully indoctrinated: rationalisations which are recognised as ridiculous by anyone capable of looking at them objectively are considered by them to be perfectly adequate.
 
Janadele said:
It is not necessary for us to live a long life. Those who do not, are blessed in that their trial is short, with less mistakes to be accounted for... and in the case of a child under the age of eight, they have no sins to be judged on, and will inherit the highest degree that their pre existant life allows for.

There were no diseases in the Garden of Eden before sin was introduced to the world through Eve disobeying the instructions of our Heavenly Father.
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And when one person makes a mistake (which by the way can easily be argued to be the mistake of the creator, not the creation), the rational answer is to punish everyone everywhere for all eternity.
 
Joseph Smith was a Prophet of God. The Book of Mormon is Scripture,
"The Book of Mormon is a volume of holy scripture comparable to the Bible. It is a record of God’s dealings with the ancient inhabitants of the Americas and contains the fulness of the everlasting gospel. The book was written by many ancient prophets by the spirit of prophecy and revelation. Their words, written on gold plates, were quoted and abridged by a prophet-historian named Mormon. The record gives an account of two great civilizations. One came from Jerusalem in 600 B.C., and afterward separated into two nations, known as the Nephites and the Lamanites. The other came much earlier when the Lord confounded the tongues at the Tower of Babel. This group is known as the Jaredites. After thousands of years, all were destroyed except the Lamanites, and they are among the ancestors of the American Indians.

The crowning event recorded in the Book of Mormon is the personal ministry of the Lord Jesus Christ among the Nephites soon after his resurrection. It puts forth the doctrines of the gospel, outlines the plan of salvation, and tells men what they must do to gain peace in this life and eternal salvation in the life to come. After Mormon completed his writings, he delivered the account to his son Moroni, who added a few words of his own and hid up the plates in the hill Cumorah. On September 21, 1823, the same Moroni, then a glorified, resurrected being, appeared to the Prophet Joseph Smith and instructed him relative to the ancient record and its destined translation into the English language. In due course the plates were delivered to Joseph Smith, who translated them by the gift and power of God. The record is now published in many languages as a new and additional witness that Jesus Christ is the Son of the living God and that all who will come unto him and obey the laws and ordinances of his gospel may be saved."
http://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/introduction?lang=eng
 
Janadele said:
Joseph Smith was a Prophet of God. The Book of Mormon is Scripture,
"The Book of Mormon is a volume of holy scripture comparable to the Bible. It is a record of God’s dealings with the ancient inhabitants of the Americas and contains the fulness of the everlasting gospel. The book was written by many ancient prophets by the spirit of prophecy and revelation. Their words, written on gold plates, were quoted and abridged by a prophet-historian named Mormon. The record gives an account of two great civilizations. One came from Jerusalem in 600 B.C., and afterward separated into two nations, known as the Nephites and the Lamanites. The other came much earlier when the Lord confounded the tongues at the Tower of Babel. This group is known as the Jaredites. After thousands of years, all were destroyed except the Lamanites, and they are among the ancestors of the American Indians.

The crowning event recorded in the Book of Mormon is the personal ministry of the Lord Jesus Christ among the Nephites soon after his resurrection. It puts forth the doctrines of the gospel, outlines the plan of salvation, and tells men what they must do to gain peace in this life and eternal salvation in the life to come. After Mormon completed his writings, he delivered the account to his son Moroni, who added a few words of his own and hid up the plates in the hill Cumorah. On September 21, 1823, the same Moroni, then a glorified, resurrected being, appeared to the Prophet Joseph Smith and instructed him relative to the ancient record and its destined translation into the English language. In due course the plates were delivered to Joseph Smith, who translated them by the gift and power of God. The record is now published in many languages as a new and additional witness that Jesus Christ is the Son of the living God and that all who will come unto him and obey the laws and ordinances of his gospel may be saved."
http://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/introduction?lang=eng
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None of the above is true. It's all a lie as evidenced by the fact that the person who made it up got the history of the New World abysmally incorrect. Now, will you concede the point that what you just posted is a lie?
 
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