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Joseph Smith was a Prophet of God. The Book of Mormon is Scripture,


Yawn. The Book of Mormon is true because The Book of Mormon says it's true.

Do you really not see how that circular argument is faulty? Do you think we haven't seen equally poor arguments like that from believers in other religions?

What do you really hope to achieve here, Janadele, with "arguments" that are as weak as that?
 
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Joseph Smith was a Prophet of God. The Book of Mormon is Scripture,
"The Book of Mormon is a volume of holy scripture comparable to the Bible. It is a record of God’s dealings with the ancient inhabitants of the Americas and contains the fulness of the everlasting gospel. The book was written by many ancient prophets by the spirit of prophecy and revelation. Their words, written on gold plates, were quoted and abridged by a prophet-historian named Mormon. The record gives an account of two great civilizations. One came from Jerusalem in 600 B.C., and afterward separated into two nations, known as the Nephites and the Lamanites. The other came much earlier when the Lord confounded the tongues at the Tower of Babel. This group is known as the Jaredites. After thousands of years, all were destroyed except the Lamanites, and they are among the ancestors of the American Indians.

The crowning event recorded in the Book of Mormon is the personal ministry of the Lord Jesus Christ among the Nephites soon after his resurrection. It puts forth the doctrines of the gospel, outlines the plan of salvation, and tells men what they must do to gain peace in this life and eternal salvation in the life to come. After Mormon completed his writings, he delivered the account to his son Moroni, who added a few words of his own and hid up the plates in the hill Cumorah. On September 21, 1823, the same Moroni, then a glorified, resurrected being, appeared to the Prophet Joseph Smith and instructed him relative to the ancient record and its destined translation into the English language. In due course the plates were delivered to Joseph Smith, who translated them by the gift and power of God. The record is now published in many languages as a new and additional witness that Jesus Christ is the Son of the living God and that all who will come unto him and obey the laws and ordinances of his gospel may be saved."
http://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/introduction?lang=eng

Why does god need prophets? If he wants everyone to know his word why not just tell us?
 
Joseph Smith was a Prophet of God. The Book of Mormon is Scripture,
"The Book of Mormon is a volume of holy scripture comparable to the Bible. It is a record of God’s dealings with the ancient inhabitants of the Americas and contains the fulness of the everlasting gospel. The book was written by many ancient prophets by the spirit of prophecy and revelation. Their words, written on gold plates, were quoted and abridged by a prophet-historian named Mormon. The record gives an account of two great civilizations. One came from Jerusalem in 600 B.C., and afterward separated into two nations, known as the Nephites and the Lamanites. The other came much earlier when the Lord confounded the tongues at the Tower of Babel. This group is known as the Jaredites. After thousands of years, all were destroyed except the Lamanites, and they are among the ancestors of the American Indians.

The crowning event recorded in the Book of Mormon is the personal ministry of the Lord Jesus Christ among the Nephites soon after his resurrection. It puts forth the doctrines of the gospel, outlines the plan of salvation, and tells men what they must do to gain peace in this life and eternal salvation in the life to come. After Mormon completed his writings, he delivered the account to his son Moroni, who added a few words of his own and hid up the plates in the hill Cumorah. On September 21, 1823, the same Moroni, then a glorified, resurrected being, appeared to the Prophet Joseph Smith and instructed him relative to the ancient record and its destined translation into the English language. In due course the plates were delivered to Joseph Smith, who translated them by the gift and power of God. The record is now published in many languages as a new and additional witness that Jesus Christ is the Son of the living God and that all who will come unto him and obey the laws and ordinances of his gospel may be saved."
http://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/introduction?lang=eng

Very nice.

I am also a prophet of god. In fact a newer one.
You know this is true because I am wrote this down and noone but a prophet of god would ever write this.
Since I am a newer prophet clearly everything I write is more true than anything written before.
Yet it shall come to pass that there are those who doubt my word. After death they shall see the light and be converted to my word anyway, yet never appear to unbelievers because of free will.
Now repent from your false believe and start obeying me.

Clearly this writing is sufficient evidence for you?
If not, why is the similar (but FAR more verbose) version of the mormons true without a shred of external evidence?
 
http://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/introduction?lang=eng
"Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That we, through the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, have seen the plates which contain this record, which is a record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites, their brethren, and also of the people of Jared, who came from the tower of which hath been spoken. And we also know that they have been translated by the gift and power of God, for his voice hath declared it unto us; wherefore we know of a surety that the work is true. And we also testify that we have seen the engravings which are upon the plates; and they have been shown unto us by the power of God, and not of man. And we declare with words of soberness, that an angel of God came down from heaven, and he brought and laid before our eyes, that we beheld and saw the plates, and the engravings thereon; and we know that it is by the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, that we beheld and bear record that these things are true. And it is marvelous in our eyes. Nevertheless, the voice of the Lord commanded us that we should bear record of it; wherefore, to be obedient unto the commandments of God, we bear testimony of these things. And we know that if we are faithful in Christ, we shall rid our garments of the blood of all men, and be found spotless before the judgment-seat of Christ, and shall dwell with him eternally in the heavens. And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen."

Oliver Cowdery
David Whitmer
Martin Harris
 
http://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/introduction?lang=eng
"Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That we, through the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, have seen the plates which contain this record, which is a record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites, their brethren, and also of the people of Jared, who came from the tower of which hath been spoken. And we also know that they have been translated by the gift and power of God, for his voice hath declared it unto us; wherefore we know of a surety that the work is true. And we also testify that we have seen the engravings which are upon the plates; and they have been shown unto us by the power of God, and not of man. And we declare with words of soberness, that an angel of God came down from heaven, and he brought and laid before our eyes, that we beheld and saw the plates, and the engravings thereon; and we know that it is by the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, that we beheld and bear record that these things are true. And it is marvelous in our eyes. Nevertheless, the voice of the Lord commanded us that we should bear record of it; wherefore, to be obedient unto the commandments of God, we bear testimony of these things. And we know that if we are faithful in Christ, we shall rid our garments of the blood of all men, and be found spotless before the judgment-seat of Christ, and shall dwell with him eternally in the heavens. And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen."

Oliver Cowdery
David Whitmer
Martin Harris

This would establish that barley was cultivated in the New World prior to Columbus how exactly?
 
All things are possible with the Lord. There are no errors of content in The Book of Mormon.
 
http://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/introduction?lang=eng
"Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That we, through the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, have seen the plates which contain this record, which is a record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites, their brethren, and also of the people of Jared, who came from the tower of which hath been spoken. And we also know that they have been translated by the gift and power of God, for his voice hath declared it unto us; wherefore we know of a surety that the work is true. And we also testify that we have seen the engravings which are upon the plates; and they have been shown unto us by the power of God, and not of man. And we declare with words of soberness, that an angel of God came down from heaven, and he brought and laid before our eyes, that we beheld and saw the plates, and the engravings thereon; and we know that it is by the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, that we beheld and bear record that these things are true. And it is marvelous in our eyes. Nevertheless, the voice of the Lord commanded us that we should bear record of it; wherefore, to be obedient unto the commandments of God, we bear testimony of these things. And we know that if we are faithful in Christ, we shall rid our garments of the blood of all men, and be found spotless before the judgment-seat of Christ, and shall dwell with him eternally in the heavens. And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen."

Oliver Cowdery
David Whitmer
Martin Harris

How much did Smith pay them to sign that document?
 
How much did Smith pay them to sign that document?
Obviously not enough.

http://saintsalive.com/resourcelibrary/mormonism/the-testimony-of-the-three-witnesses

Oliver Cowdery was the Church's second Elder, often called the "Second President." The early day companion of Joseph Smith, he was scribe for the Book of Mormon, present at the "Restoration of the Priesthood,' and as close to the real truth as any man.(1) However, in 1838 in Kirtland, Oliver confronted Joseph Smith with the charge of adultery with Fanny Alger, and with lying and teaching false doctrines.(2) Joseph Smith denied this and charged Cowdery with being a liar.(3)

David Whitmer saw the plates ëby the eye of faith' handled by an angel.(1) He later told of finding them lying in a field and later still, told Orson Pratt that they were on a table with all sorts of brass plates, gold plates, the Sword of Laban, the ëDirector' and the Urim and Thumim.(2) During the summer of 1837, while in Kirtland, he pledged his new loyalty to a prophetess ( as did Martin and Oliver) who used a black seer stone and danced herself into ëtrances.'(3) It was the start of the finish for him.

It ended in 1847 in his declaration to Oliver that he (Whitmer) was to be the Prophet of the New Church of Christ and Oliver a counselor.(4) In the meantime, he was excommunicated and roughly put out. His and Oliver's families were, in fact, driven into the streets and robbed by the Mormons while Whitmer and Cowdery were away trying to arrange a place to flee.(5)

Martin Harris was first a Quaker, then a Universalist, next a Restorationist, then a Baptist, next a Presbyterian, and then a Mormon.(1) After his excommunication in 1837, he changed his religion eight more times, going from the Shakers to one Mormon splinter group to the next, and back to the main group in 1842.(2) Yet, in 1846, Harris was preaching among the Saints in England for the Apostate James J. Strang.(3) Harris testified that his testimony for Shakerism was greater than it was for Mormonism.

The Shaker's "Sacred Roll and Book" was also delivered by an angel.(4) His later testimony that he saw the plates by "the eyes of faith and not with the natural eyes" should eliminate him automatically as a witness.(5) In the Elder's Journal for August, 1838, Joseph Smith denounces him as "so far beneath contempt that to notice him would be too great a sacrifice for a gentleman to make. The Church exerted some restraint on him, but now he has given loose to all kinds of abominations, lying, cheating, swindling, and all kinds of debauchery."(6)
 
Don't feel too bad. The people who made up the Bible got a lot of stuff wrong too (that whole census thing in the birth myth is totally screwed up). Of course the lies in your book are a lot more obvious.
 
The mistake that public commentators often make is taking an obscure teaching that is peripheral to the Church’s purpose and placing it at the very center. This is especially common among reporters or researchers who rely on how other Christians interpret Latter-day Saint doctrine.

Because different times present different challenges, modern-day prophets receive revelation relevant to the circumstances of their day.

That's what I was trying to get at in my earlier post about whether gay marriage could ever be endorsed by the church.

When I asked how you knew that gay marriage would never be allowed in the LDS church, you said in post 58 "Because homosexual activity is against Eternal Law and the reasons for our mortal existence."

I could never get you to cite scripture to explain how you knew it was an eternal law, unlike other things which the prophets could receive revelation about as times changed.

How do you know which are eternal laws and which are subject to revelation? Your answer seems to be personal revelation, but that's not how it works for church-wide things; it works the way you explained in your full post above (which I've snipped for brevity, but of course it's at the arrow link).

I still stand behind my statement that the LDS-doctrine-supported answer to: "Will the church ever approve of gay marriage?" would be: "We don't know, but if God wants us to, he will reveal it through the prophet." Just as you explained in your post above.

If you can cite scripture, revelation or a prophet speaking as a prophet, saying that the concept of marriage being between one man and one or more women, cannot be changed by revelation, I'd love to see it. Or, if you can cite something similar explaining how individuals can predict what can't be changed by future revelations, same thing.

The core doctrine, that families can be together forever and that marriages continue beyond death, would not be disrupted by two gay men or women and their adopted children continuing as a family forever.

That would actually disrupt the core doctrine less, than the strange problem of a widow remarrying, and therefore having sex and children with a man who isn't her celestial mate. And yes, Mormons realize how awkward that's gotta be in the afterlife: http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.j...toid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD

If two people who have been sealed to their spouses in the temple are left alone when those spouses die, is it really all right for the pair of them to fall in love and get married? I remember asking that question of a Mutual teacher when I was about twelve. The answer was “Yes, of course.” Still, I was never quite sure if the Lord would endorse it.
...
Richard [the widow's prospective second husband years later] responded by telling me that if he and I were to marry, he imagined that after we passed on, we would be eager to introduce our spouses to each other and that they would thank us respectively for taking good care of each other. He felt that love worthy of continuing into the celestial kingdom would not be cheapened by jealousy and that we would still have an interest in each other’s children, whom we would grow to love as we cared for them on earth

If the LDS church can justify that, as well as encourage adoption and sealing of adopted children to their new parents, it can certainly justify the simple problem of two gay parents and their kids meeting in heaven when social pressure becomes strong enough, just as they justified giving blacks the priesthood when racism went out of style.
 
Um, so what? That's a great argument for those who think the Bible is the holy word of God and so therefore think that any contradiction is blasphemous. But for those who think both religions are made up, one can't really be more made up than the other. They're just different.

Of course. the point here is that the LDS church believe that the bible is the Holy word of God.

Bit of a sticking point.

It claims direct revelation from God, therefore eliminating Chinese whispers. So it's the Bible "as far as it's translated correctly," and the Book of Mormon, translated correctly by direct inspiration.

If I read correctly Joseph Smith digs up some golden plates in 1827 - he translates the text on these plates with 'divine help' - finds 11 other people to witness that they did in fact exist. Then goes and buries the plates once he is done losing them forever in the process.

Noone can test the existence of the golden book, outside of the 11 'chosen ones' noone else has ever seen them, noone can test the authenticity of it assuming it is in fact real, noone can check the accuracy of the translation.

Not only that but the book is full of mistakes and contradictions and anachronisms. It's either very badly translated, made up fantasy, or God is the king of all practical jokers.

I'm not getting such a divine, "direct word of God" feeling here.

Direct word of god would be god writes down what he is saying in a gold (or any other kind of book) in contemporary language. The book of Mormon was translated from words apparently of an indigenous American prophet circa AD 400. So it's not a direct pipeline at all it's a translation of the writings of someone who lived 1400 years previously. That's if you accept the book existed at all.

If one takes the view that Joseph Smith was getting his translation direct from God, why does the book need to exist at all?

On top of all of that it's revised in later editions so just how divine and accurate can it be? Polygamy(?) really?!?

The bible is considerably more accurate and has archeological, historical evidence to complement it... (Not that the bible is worth the paper it's written on either imo but hey)
 
Let us try to slowly work out this comprehension problem Bruno. How have you come to the following quoted conclusion when I have said no such thing?

The following are the previous posts:
I'm asking if the gender of a spirit is unknown after death. Your quotations are the same quotations I'm citing. In those quotations you use the word "unknown."

In the rare occasion that the gender of the mortal body of a person is not known, then the gender of the Spiritual body is also not known while in mortality.

Gender is an eternal characteristic. There is no negotiation on the gender of our Spirit. To abide by Eternal Law celibacy is the only option if for some genuine reason the gender of the Spirit is unknown.

So, according to you, if a person is born a hermaphrodite it is not just a matter that the lord wants the person to stay without gender specificity, it is as you say NOT KNOWN. And I thus repeat my question, why not?

Maybe you need to tell us more specifically what you mean by the phrase "in mortality." I assume this means "in death." If it means "in life" then it's not a very good choice of words.
 
I'm asking if the gender of a spirit is unknown after death. Your quotations are the same quotations I'm citing. In those quotations you use the word "unknown."





So, according to you, if a person is born a hermaphrodite it is not just a matter that the lord wants the person to stay without gender specificity, it is as you say NOT KNOWN. And I thus repeat my question, why not?

Maybe you need to tell us more specifically what you mean by the phrase "in mortality." I assume this means "in death." If it means "in life" then it's not a very good choice of words.

While I wait to go pick my mother up from her (Mormon) church, I'll just chime in here, and mention that when Mormon's use the term "in mortality" they're referring to life here on earth. So when Janadele says their sex or gender is not known in mortality, she's saying that they won't know their sex in this life. I don't recall whether she actually ever answered whether they would find out in the next life.

Janadele, speaking as someone brought up Mormon, and, to my never-ending mortification, actually believing this nonsense for the first 12 or so years of my life, I too would like to see you address the clear anachronisms of the BoM. The BoM CANNOT be "the most correct of any book on earth" as JS termed it, and also be loaded with clear fallacies. How do you rectify that?
 
Joseph Smith was a Prophet of God. The Book of Mormon is Scripture,
"The Book of Mormon is a volume of holy scripture comparable to the Bible. It is a record of God’s dealings with the ancient inhabitants of the Americas and contains the fulness of the everlasting gospel. The book was written by many ancient prophets by the spirit of prophecy and revelation. Their words, written on gold plates, were quoted and abridged by a prophet-historian named Mormon. The record gives an account of two great civilizations. One came from Jerusalem in 600 B.C., and afterward separated into two nations, known as the Nephites and the Lamanites. The other came much earlier when the Lord confounded the tongues at the Tower of Babel. This group is known as the Jaredites. After thousands of years, all were destroyed except the Lamanites, and they are among the ancestors of the American Indians.

The crowning event recorded in the Book of Mormon is the personal ministry of the Lord Jesus Christ among the Nephites soon after his resurrection. It puts forth the doctrines of the gospel, outlines the plan of salvation, and tells men what they must do to gain peace in this life and eternal salvation in the life to come. After Mormon completed his writings, he delivered the account to his son Moroni, who added a few words of his own and hid up the plates in the hill Cumorah. On September 21, 1823, the same Moroni, then a glorified, resurrected being, appeared to the Prophet Joseph Smith and instructed him relative to the ancient record and its destined translation into the English language. In due course the plates were delivered to Joseph Smith, who translated them by the gift and power of God. The record is now published in many languages as a new and additional witness that Jesus Christ is the Son of the living God and that all who will come unto him and obey the laws and ordinances of his gospel may be saved."
http://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/introduction?lang=eng

You may have missed Craig's question:

"So you then concede that Smith lied when he was pretending to translate the tablets?"

So you concede that Smith lied when he pretended to translate the Book of Abraham form hypocephali dating from 1000 years after Abraham?
 
http://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/introduction?lang=eng
"Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That we, through the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, have seen the plates which contain this record, which is a record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites, their brethren, and also of the people of Jared, who came from the tower of which hath been spoken. And we also know that they have been translated by the gift and power of God, for his voice hath declared it unto us; wherefore we know of a surety that the work is true. And we also testify that we have seen the engravings which are upon the plates; and they have been shown unto us by the power of God, and not of man. And we declare with words of soberness, that an angel of God came down from heaven, and he brought and laid before our eyes, that we beheld and saw the plates, and the engravings thereon; and we know that it is by the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, that we beheld and bear record that these things are true. And it is marvelous in our eyes. Nevertheless, the voice of the Lord commanded us that we should bear record of it; wherefore, to be obedient unto the commandments of God, we bear testimony of these things. And we know that if we are faithful in Christ, we shall rid our garments of the blood of all men, and be found spotless before the judgment-seat of Christ, and shall dwell with him eternally in the heavens. And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen."

Oliver Cowdery
David Whitmer
Martin Harris

So tBoM is true because tBoM says it is true? Why is it different firm the Vedas? What about not only the utter lack of evidence supporting its incorrect history, but the real and consistent evidence of actual history?
 
No, you are not reading correctly Ambrosia.
Briefly... the Angel Moroni, a resurrected being and messenger of God showed Joseph the location of the plates. The same messenger takes the plates at the decreed time. Simple printing errors were the only revision.
Of course. the point here is that the LDS church believe that the bible is the Holy word of God...
If I read correctly Joseph Smith digs up some golden plates in 1827... Then goes and buries the plates once he is done losing them forever in the process.
On top of all of that it's revised in later editions
 
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