KSM beheaded Pearl: A challenge for Truthers

[Seymour Butz]

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Captured prisoners are good sources of current Intel needs.

Yep. But your response doesn't address nor acknowledge the fact that it's within the Pres' power to kill a terrorist. THAT is the ultimate denial of human rights, and yet I've not seen any statement against that. To me, that smacks of hypocrisy and Bush derangement syndrome.

Therefore, it is my belief that those that speak against waterboarding still haven't made the connection that how terrorists are treated and how domestic criminals are treated fall onto 2 different jurisdictions.

Torture doesn't get that, it gets the answers the tortured feels will relieve the pain, whatever those answers might be.
And if sufficiently motivated, take all kinds of abuse and die, or, mislead the questioners.

This is why the questioners don't solely rely on these statements, and take copious notes on what is said. It merely points to avenues that need to be investigated.

None of the other "confessions" can point to an attempt thwarted by the information in any of the "confessions", there being nothing at all about any of them in the media.

You nor I know everything about it.

The sumbitch was waterboarded 183 times!
And told the truth every time?
Only the stupid can accept that.

Good thing that the guys in intel aren't.

 

[I Ratant]

...
You nor I know everything about it.
...

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Granite, but on the face of it, with the bad history of torture, and the blatant criminal actions (non-Constitutional) of this particular torture, accepting it as right and proper is immoral and unpatriotic.
This torture rapes and sodomizes the Constitution. Without the constraint of the Constitution, none of us have rights at all!
Where is the proper outrage to a practice with no visible benefits as this is pretty much, and criminal (non-Constitutional) to boot?

 

[twinstead]

While I find this discussion interesting and see some merit on both sides of the issue, I think the thread has ventured away from conspiracy a little.

 

[Jackanory]

the vid i saw of the beheading was very grainy and i didnt see any "vein" in the killers hand. his arms were not that "hairy" either. check out ksm left arm from one of his gitmo pics. ksm is VERY hairy!!

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/285444d3ce72290f5b.bmp[/qimg]

KSM is very articulate too.........“I decapitated with my blessed right hand the head of the American Jew, Daniel Pearl, in the city of Karachi, Pakistan,”.

He went on to say................... “For those who would like to confirm, there are pictures of me on the Internet holding his head.”

In answer to the above what was your response.............you show a picture of his left hand and tell us he is hairy. Lower than a snakes belly.

 

[Baylor]

Ok, now then, can you point to where the victim’s family has called for or supported torture? Or are you just using that as a fig leaf for your own revenge fantasies?

I never said explicitly said that victim's family has called for torture, or even said that torturing was good policy. I'm saying I'm glad KSM was waterboarded, and I believe some of the victim's family members are too.

I love the fact that objecting to torture is now "sanctimonious".

If one of your loved ones was ever brutally murdered, and the murderer was waterboarded, I doubt you would be as passionate about not waterboarding as you are now.

 

[JihadJane]

I never said explicitly said that victim's family has called for torture, or even said that torturing was good policy. I'm saying I'm glad KSM was waterboarded, and I believe some of the victim's family members are too.

What is the basis for your belief?

If one of your loved ones was ever brutally murdered, and the murderer was waterboarded, I doubt you would be as passionate about not waterboarding as you are now.

What is your basis for this belief?

 

[JihadJane]

This is why the questioners don't solely rely on these statements, and take copious notes on what is said. It merely points to avenues that need to be investigated.

How do you know?

 

[The Big Dog]

What is the basis for your belief?

What is your basis for this belief?

Silly me, I thought that the subject of this thread in the 911 Subforum was the comprehensive privately funded investigation outlined in the first post and how its serves as a challenge to the Truthers who have completely failed to conduct anything remotely similar in the almost ten years since 9/11.

Perhaps JJ you would like to take you derail to the Politics forum?

Thanks.

 

[JihadJane]

Silly me, I thought that the subject of this thread in the 911 Subforum was the comprehensive privately funded investigation outlined in the first post and how its serves as a challenge to the Truthers who have completely failed to conduct anything remotely similar in the almost ten years since 9/11.

Perhaps JJ you would like to take you derail to the Politics forum?

Thanks.

Perhaps you should read the rest of the thread before picking on me!

Your Truthers' angle was always too obscure and forced to stimulate more than a few posts. What is there to say about it?

 

[Jackanory]

You wrote:



I was asking for evidence to support the assertions I have highlighted, above, rather than for an assertion that KSM was waterboarded.


Your description of waterboarding as "a bit of water" suggests a profound lack of knowledge about a procedure. The US executed Japanese people for doing it to US POWs.

Do you have evidence that he remained silent?

Do you have evidence that he gave false information just to make it stop?

As I have stated before, I am fully aware of the procedure.

Did those US POW's talk to their Japanese waterboarders? YES!!!!!!

FYI and in response to those stating that waterboarding only illicits lies to make it stop...........Absolute nonesense! It produces results. The Japanese can confirm this! Those US POW's can confirm this! The CIA and the US gubmint can confirm this.........but probably wont!

How are those results confirmed? The very process of waterboarding relies primarily on fear. Fear of another episode of waterboarding. After an introduction to it and in conjunction with other techniques, the threat of it is usually sufficient. The physical act of waterboarding is simply a means to an end. Those who are subject to it are prone to supply intel just before the act of waterboarding in an attempt to stop it happening rather than supplying intel during the act of waterboarding. Difficult to speak whilst it is happening.

Pre and post waterboarding are the key times for on the spot, real time intel. It may be from direct questioning. It may be given voluntarily as a " I dont know anything about what your asking but I do know about other terrorist activities and I will tell you if you stop".

That intel is then physically checked to see if it is indeed true or false. That means that the interogator passes that info almost immediately to be checked and actioned. Verification of people, names, training camps, attacks can be prompt. The idea that those who are subject to waterboarding only tell lies or 'say what is expected to hear' is absolute nonesense.......because it is verified. Lies dont work.

If KSM had been caught earlier and questioned about his activities then it is likely that by using waterboarding on him it could have prevented 9/11 and Danial Pearl suffering at his hands.

I would rather use any means possible to prevent another 9/11, 7/7 and another Danial Pearl!

Debating on what his family think should be done to KSM is lower than a snakes belly.

 

[JihadJane]

Do you have evidence that he remained silent?

Do you have evidence that he gave false information just to make it stop?

As I have stated before, I am fully aware of the procedure.

Did those US POW's talk to their Japanese waterboarders? YES!!!!!!

FYI and in response to those stating that waterboarding only illicits lies to make it stop...........Absolute nonesense! It produces results. The Japanese can confirm this! Those US POW's can confirm this! The CIA and the US gubmint can confirm this.........but probably wont!

I said that information gleaned from torture is unreliable, not that it only produces lies.

How are those results confirmed? The very process of waterboarding relies primarily on fear. Fear of another episode of waterboarding. After an introduction to it and in conjunction with other techniques, the threat of it is usually sufficient. The physical act of waterboarding is simply a means to an end. Those who are subject to it are prone to supply intel just before the act of waterboarding in an attempt to stop it happening rather than supplying intel during the act of waterboarding. Difficult to speak whilst it is happening.

Pre and post waterboarding are the key times for on the spot, real time intel. It may be from direct questioning. It may be given voluntarily as a " I dont know anything about what your asking but I do know about other terrorist activities and I will tell you if you stop".

That intel is then physically checked to see if it is indeed true or false. That means that the interogator passes that info almost immediately to be checked and actioned. Verification of people, names, training camps, attacks can be prompt. The idea that those who are subject to waterboarding only tell lies or 'say what is expected to hear' is absolute nonesense.......because it is verified. Lies dont work.

If KSM had been caught earlier and questioned about his activities then it is likely that by using waterboarding on him it could have prevented 9/11 and Danial Pearl suffering at his hands.

I would rather use any means possible to prevent another 9/11, 7/7 and another Danial Pearl!

So, do you have any evidence (apart from your lack of doubt) that "the waterboarding of KSM lead to much inteligence about his organisation, other planned attacks, atrocities, people, places, names, training camps, safehouses, weapons, explosives, drugs, money etc etc etc. ................................saving thousands of lives"?


Some relevant discussion on whether or not waterboarding produces useful information:

'Monica Crowley revives dubious claim that waterboarding KSM resulted in "actionable intelligence"'

Debating on what his family think should be done to KSM is lower than a snakes belly.

Try telling UNLoVedRebel that.

 

[The Big Dog]

Perhaps you should read the rest of the thread before picking on me!

Your Truthers' angle was always too obscure and forced to stimulate more than a few posts. What is there to say about it?

Ah, the privately funded, effective investigation that should serve as a pefect model for the truthers repeated demands that they want a "NEW INVESTIGATION" is "too forced" and and will get only a few responses?

I see.

So you agree that you don't really want an investigation, you just want to snark on the internet, while your "leaders" continue to shear the sheep for donations, huh?

Cool story, bro.

 

[JihadJane]

Ah, the privately funded, effective investigation that should serve as a pefect model for the truthers repeated demands that they want a "NEW INVESTIGATION" is "too forced" and and will get only a few responses?

Seems that way, doesn't it?

I see.

So you agree that you don't really want an investigation, you just want to snark on the internet, while your "leaders" continue to shear the sheep for donations, huh?

Cool story, bro.

You appear to be mistaking me for someone else.

 

[Jackanory]

So, do you have any evidence (apart from your lack of doubt) that "the waterboarding of KSM lead to much inteligence about his organisation, other planned attacks, atrocities, people, places, names, training camps, safehouses, weapons, explosives, drugs, money etc etc etc. ................................saving thousands of lives"?


Some relevant discussion on whether or not waterboarding produces useful information:

'Monica Crowley revives dubious claim that waterboarding KSM resulted in "actionable intelligence"'

I just explained the process, the reason for that process and the results of that process. Given your stated knowledge and links to the process of waterboarding I doubt very much that KSM remained tight lipped about his network of cohorts. He was very forthcoming before he was caught. He was very forthcoming when caught and he has been very forthcoming whilst languishing in his cell dreaming about his virgins.

So which is it to be JJ? Is waterboarding so bad and monstrous that everybody gives sound intel if they have it or is it so ineffective that they all tell lies to make it stop? I have no doubt that the Koran is misinterpreted. I dont have any evidence of such but I doubt that really matters.

 

[Jackanory]

Some relevant discussion on whether or not waterboarding produces useful information:

'Monica Crowley revives dubious claim that waterboarding KSM resulted in "actionable intelligence"'

KSM dissed the process, admitted telling lies to stop the process and Monica Crowley jumps on the bandwagon! Is that all ya got. lol

 

[JihadJane]

I just explained the process, the reason for that process and the results of that process. Given your stated knowledge and links to the process of waterboarding I doubt very much that KSM remained tight lipped about his network of cohorts. He was very forthcoming before he was caught. He was very forthcoming when caught and he has been very forthcoming whilst languishing in his cell dreaming about his virgins.

So which is it to be JJ? Is waterboarding so bad and monstrous that everybody gives sound intel if they have it or is it so ineffective that they all tell lies to make it stop? I have no doubt that the Koran is misinterpreted. I dont have any evidence of such but I doubt that really matters.

Your doubt or lack thereof is irrelevant. You have yet to provide any evidence to support your claim that "the waterboarding of KSM lead to much inteligence about his organisation, other planned attacks, atrocities, people, places, names, training camps, safehouses, weapons, explosives, drugs, money etc etc etc. ................................saving thousands of lives."

If you read the article linked to in my last post you will see that a "2004 CIA inspector general's (IG) report of the CIA's interrogation program stated that '[t]he effectiveness of particular interrogation techniques in eliciting information that might not otherwise have been obtained cannot be easily measured'" and that "KSM reportedly said he 'gave a lot of false information ... in order to make the ill-treatment stop'".

KSM dissed the process, admitted telling lies to stop the process and Monica Crowley jumps on the bandwagon! Is that all ya got. lol

There's a lot more than that on that page.

 

[Jackanory]

Your doubt or lack thereof is irrelevant. You have yet to provide any evidence to support your claim that "the waterboarding of KSM lead to much inteligence about his organisation, other planned attacks, atrocities, people, places, names, training camps, safehouses, weapons, explosives, drugs, money etc etc etc. ................................saving thousands of lives."

If you read the article linked to in my last post you will see that a "2004 CIA inspector general's (IG) report of the CIA's interrogation program stated that '[t]he effectiveness of particular interrogation techniques in eliciting information that might not otherwise have been obtained cannot be easily measured'" and that "KSM reportedly said he 'gave a lot of false information ... in order to make the ill-treatment stop'".



There's a lot more than that on that page.

Quote mine much?

Keep posting to links that do you no favours.

Reading comprehension required. '[t]he effectiveness of particular interrogation techniques in eliciting information that might not otherwise have been obtained cannot be easily measured'". This doesnt mean what you think it means. It doesnt say that it doesnt work.

And I confirmed the process and what may be said by those being waterboarded. KSM tried it on and told lies to make it stop. He aslo told the truth to make it stop.

Back to my original post and the thorn in your side.................'I have no doubt'. I have no doubt, I have no doubt.................is very relevent because it is what i actually said in my post. As much as you would have liked it, I didnt say 'I know' or 'I have evidence' no matter how many times you ask. It still says 'I have no doubt' ............because using my knowledge of waterboarding and your confirmed knowledge of waterboarding 'I have no doubt' that KSM sang like a canary.

Indeed, your link to Monica Crowley confirms that he sang like a canary and told some lies to make them stop. What truths did he tell? Those are the important ones.

He's a mass murderer and a butcher.......who cares about a few lies! Are those lies enough to say that waterboarding doesnt work? Are the words of a mass murderer and butcher, who confessed before, during and after the process, enough to convince a pen pusher that waterboarding doesnt work? I dont think so!

 

[achimspok]

Since I answered your string of stupid questions, answer mine. Was someone you loved ever brutally murdered on videotape?

How *********** stupid an answer can be?

Do not swear in your posts or try to evade the auto-censor by substituting letters. If you can't post without swearing, just type the word and let the auto-censor do its job

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: LashL

No international court would buy that KSM confession. Do you know why? Witches were tortured to obtain a confession about making weather and flying on brooms.

 

[Jackanory]

How *********** stupid an answer can be?

No international court would buy that KSM confession. Do you know why? Witches were tortured to obtain a confession about making weather and flying on brooms.

So when he repeats his confession and stands up in front of your 'international court' and confesses to the judge that he planned 9/11 and cut off Danial Pearls head................the judge wont 'buy it' huh! lol.

 

[achimspok]

the vid i saw of the beheading was very grainy and i didnt see any "vein" in the killers hand. his arms were not that "hairy" either. check out ksm left arm from one of his gitmo pics. ksm is VERY hairy!!

Doesn't look like a little fat hairy killer for me.