KSM beheaded Pearl: A challenge for Truthers

[Lenbrazil]

Here's something for ya...
Tear off and destroy when it's uncomfortable.....
.
And another quote from that old thing...
KSM -was- provided with counsel, right?
It is the LAW, after all...
.

"Amendment 6 - Right to Speedy Trial, Confrontation of Witnesses. Ratified 12/15/1791. In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence"
.
Nothing about ugly ragheads not qualifying for this protection.

I agree that KSM and the others should be given civilian trials, except for POWs, the 6th Ammendment should apply to all those subject to the US justice system no matter what their citizenship and no matter how repellent their crimes. I don't see a 5th ammendment violation though; his torture induced confession is not being used against him and he was arrested pursuant and indictment.

 

[Lenbrazil]

Waterboarding pretty clearly is torture, moral aspects aside two good reasons it should not be used are that a) torture tends to produce unreliable information and b) captured soldiers of a country that use it by in turn be subject to it. In addition various liberal / lefty commentators Capt. Jeffery S Nason of the Marine Corps Command and Staff College in Quantico VA as well as notable conservatives like Mancow Muller, Chistopher Hitchens and former POW John Mccain hold similar views. I only think it would be justified in a ‘ticking bomb’ situation. That said my views on this are the same as mine regarding the death penalty. I oppose that as well but rarely feel sympathy for those who get executed and feel no sympathy for KSM, Abu Zubayda or Abd al-Rahim al-Nashiri.

Now if KSM had retracted his confession one could argue it had been tainted by torture but it’s been nearly 8 years since he was waterboarded in 2003 and there are no signs of him retracting his confession made in open court in 2008.

As for the claim the US executed Japanese for waterboarding, that has yet to be demonstrated. What McCain said and ‘Polifact’ confirmed was “following World War II war crime trials were convened. The Japanese were tried and convicted and hung for war crimes committed against American POWs. Among those charges for which they were convicted was waterboarding". So they were hung for that and other crimes which I assume included murder.

 

[Jackanory]

Where did I Ratant say that, Jackanory?

In post 205


Please stick to reality.

Tell me which part isnt real.

The jury is out on that. A large consensus argues that it puts the country (and US soldiers) in greater danger, as well causing valuable intelligence to be lost.

What jury? What large consensus? More danger than slamming planes into undefended buildings occupied by unarmed civilians? Lost intel? Reality check!

You read to much woo!

It horrifies me that you have been in any position of power over anybody, assuming your claims aren't just another fantasy that you have no doubt is true.

Why should a military career horrify you? Would it horrify you if I was also decorated numerous times during and for that career? Would it horrify you if I had saved more Irish, British, Bosnian, Serbian, Croatian, Kosovan, Iraqi and Afghani lives than you whilst putting my own at risk? Only you and those like you are horrified at something that you know little or nothing about! You accused me of lying a few months back about my service in NI. That is all you bring to this forum. Ignorance and paranoia that others lie or fantasize. I have nothing to prove here, least to you.

Your "no doubt" is worth diddly-squat (except, I acknowledge, to yourself).

It isnt meant to be worth anything to anyone else except me. Rational me.

It's a shame that the CIA illegally destroyed the recordings they made of the torture.

Did they?

I also note that you haven't attempted to substantiate your previous claim that I have defended "KSM's comfort".

Ya got that wrong too


In general, why do people use silly, belittling euphemisms? Does it make them feel big?

Why do murdering terrorists cut innocent unarmed civilian heads off for fun and post video of it on the internet and gloat



Bolded Mine

 

[Jackanory]

Now if KSM had retracted his confession one could argue it had been tainted by torture but it’s been nearly 8 years since he was waterboarded in 2003 and there are no signs of him retracting his confession made in open court in 2008.

He made so many confessions about his involvement in 911 that it would be difficult for him to choose which one to retract. Which confessions could he retract? The ones made prior to his capture? The ones made during his wash and shave or the one made in 2008?

EENIE, MEENIE, MINIE, MO.

Discard those made during his stay at the Hotel CIA and he is still **********! I would like to see him fry.

 

[Jackanory]

Most civilians in Iraq were killed by insurgents and AQ intentionally targeting them......

It was happening before we arrived. It continued to happen whilst we where there and it is still happening now. Religious and sectarian devides which sees each side killing and torturing and raping the others wives and kids on a daily basis. All in the name of western oil requirements

 

[Justin39640]

It was happening before we arrived. It continued to happen whilst we where there and it is still happening now. Religious and sectarian devides which sees each side killing and torturing and raping the others wives and kids on a daily basis. All in the name of western oil requirements

I agree. The killing didn't start when the coalition forces arrived, just more bad guys came to get into the fight. They did that by attacking and killing innocent civilians.

I think one the best examples of why they deserve crappy treatment was when fitted mentally handicapped women with bombs and sent them into that pet market killing dozens of women and children.

IIRC, didn't China get most of the oil? Then again, they use most of it to make products sold here in the US.

 

[achimspok]

I agree. The killing didn't start when the coalition forces arrived, just more bad guys came to get into the fight. They did that by attacking and killing innocent civilians.

I think one the best examples of why they deserve crappy treatment was when fitted mentally handicapped women with bombs and sent them into that pet market killing dozens of women and children.

IIRC, didn't China get most of the oil? Then again, they use most of it to make products sold here in the US.

Any source or number for the killing in Iraq before daddy Bush or son Bush arrived with his forces?

 

[achimspok]

... Would it horrify you if I had saved more Irish, British, Bosnian, Serbian, Croatian, Kosovan, Iraqi and Afghani lives than you whilst putting my own at risk? ...

Do you remember that the UN warned to accept the declaration of independence from any part of Ex-Yugoslavia? The y had reports of weapon deals etc. pp. and feared a civil war.
Germany accepted and the war started exactly in the way the UN feared.
Bosien declared Independence. The UN warned. The US accepted anyway and the civil war in Bosien started too.
The US and NATO had a pretty good reason to bomb Milošević into the stone age and they did it. No one tried to stop the delivery of arms. No one was interested in doing so.

Why? The independence of the Ex-Sovjet states around the caspian sea resulted in big oil deals and the plan to build a pipeline directly to western europa. Milošević was in the way. He wasn't part of the plan.

How many Bosnian, Serbian, Croatian, Kosovan, lives did you save? Who put your own at risk?

 

[TruthersLie]

Any source or number for the killing in Iraq before daddy Bush or son Bush arrived with his forces?

You mean something like this? (these are simple quick answers... they are not primary sources, but can get them if you want me to)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halabja_poison_gas_attack

or this?

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_did_Saddam_Hussein_do_to_the_shia_population_in_Iraq
'Chemical Ali' on trial for brutal crushing of Shia uprising. The Guardian. August 22, 2007.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq

Shortly after the war ended in 1991, Shia Muslim and Kurdish Iraqis engaged in protests against Hussein's regime, resulting in an intifada. Hussein responded with violent repression against Shia Muslims, and the protests came to an end.[40] It is estimated that as many as 100,000 people were killed.[41] The US, UK, France and Turkey claiming authority under UNSCR 688, established the Iraqi no-fly zones to protect Kurdish and Shiite populations from attacks by the Hussein regime's aircraft.

or this?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dujail_Massacre

Not counting the Iraq Iran war, or the illegal invasion of Kuwait.

I personally like this description
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurds#In_Iraq

During the Iran-Iraq War in the 1980s, the regime implemented anti-Kurdish policies and a de facto civil war broke out. Iraq was widely condemned by the international community, but was never seriously punished for oppressive measures such as the mass murder of hundreds of thousands of civilians, the wholesale destruction of thousands of villages and the deportation of thousands of Kurds to southern and central Iraq. The campaign of Iraqi government against Kurds in 1988 was called Anfal ("Spoils of War"). The Anfal attacks led to destruction of two thousand villages and death of 50,000 to 100,000 Kurds.[97]

I mean we can see that it was an ideal bastion for the enlightened rule and how a country should run with justice for all. Right?

or this?

 

[JihadJane]

That wasn't Jackanory, it was me. Get your links straight.

Aren't you, too, trying to get us sitting a little too comfortably, though?

Aside from that, every time you argue that torturing KSM was wrong... you pretty much are supporting a comfy time for him in captivity. Do you think he should be treated with respect? Should we leave a mint on his pillow?

Torturerspeak.

Why do you feel the need to post idiotic strawmen? Stick to reality.

That is what those 19 crazy terrorists did. That is why they were "crazy" by any logical definition. They murdered 3000 people in the name of their "faith," which is a perversion of Islam. Hence the use of the term "crazy."

Your useful belief that the terrorist attacks on the US can be characterized as an action simply emerging from faith in a religion carried out by crazy people is itself dangerously crazy.

Why should a military career horrify you? Would it horrify you if I was also decorated numerous times during and for that career? Would it horrify you if I had saved more Irish, British, Bosnian, Serbian, Croatian, Kosovan, Iraqi and Afghani lives than you whilst putting my own at risk? Only you and those like you are horrified at something that you know little or nothing about! You accused me of lying a few months back about my service in NI. That is all you bring to this forum. Ignorance and paranoia that others lie or fantasize. I have nothing to prove here, least to you.

So you say. Because of the twisted psychology you display on these pages ("Should we leave a mint on his pillow?" etc.), I remain horrified that you have been in any position to wield power over anybody.

The highly decorated Than Shwe.

Did they?

Yes.

 

[Justin39640]

Aren't you, too, trying to get us sitting a little too comfortably, though?

There is nothing comfy about KSM, his origins and where he ended up. It's a big ugly mess and somehow you want to find humanity in it. If he ended up with a new hole in his head during arrest would you still be defending his rights?

Torturerspeak.

Why do you feel the need to post idiotic strawmen? Stick to reality.

Call it what ever makes you more comfy. Reality is - KSM is a scumbag extraordinaire. He got far less than what he deserves. I noticed you never addressed the part of this post that pointed out how you were using McCain's quote to imply something it didn't.

So you say. Because of the twisted psychology you display on these pages ("Should we leave a mint on his pillow?" etc.), I remain horrified that you have been in any position to wield power over anybody.

If you want to make an argument, please attribute quotes to the correct poster. Why can't you tell Jackanory from me? I think you just want to attack him. He must have really gotten you good at some point in this thread.

What should have been done with KSM from time of capture to today in your opinion?

 

[Justin39640]

Any source or number for the killing in Iraq before daddy Bush or son Bush arrived with his forces?

I guess you forgot about the Saddam Regime's history? All the scumbags worked for him and they killed their own citizens at a rate of about 10,000 a year (maybe more). This is well documented and mass graves have been found.

You should probably google "Chemical Ali".

 

[Jackanory]

So you say. Because of the twisted psychology you display on these pages ("Should we leave a mint on his pillow?" etc.), I remain horrified that you have been in any position to wield power over anybody.

I do say. Who said that I 'wield power over anybody'?

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/263894d47fd0fd16ad.jpg[/qimg]

The highly decorated Than Shwe.

Than Shwe displays self imposed medals that he bestowed upon himself. Saddam Hussein did the same. Hitler did the same. Gaddaffi did the same. You do it for KSM.

Mine have been bestowed on me by others in recognition of my efforts and service.

Bolded mine

What have you done that is deserving?

 

[TruthersLie]

Your useful belief that the terrorist attacks on the US can be characterized as an action simply emerging from faith in a religion carried out by crazy people is itself dangerously crazy.

Where did I ever try to link Islam with the attacks? These individuals (many of whom had valid greviences against saudi, egypt and other islamic countries) chose to follow a "crazy" version of islam which stated they could murder innocents for the greater good. Teh reality of their motivations and actions are much more complex than either you or I have stated.

These individuals then choose to intentionally attack innocent civilians.

How does that NOT make them "crazy" by any definition?

 

[kmortis]

Thread closed for cleaning. It will reopen once all necessary
maintenance is complete.

Posted By: kmortis

Ok, I've cleaned out the chaff. Let's keep it civil and on topic; and no, the topic is never the other posters.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: kmortis