What was crazy about it?
It seems to have succeeded beyond their wildest dreams in bringing the US empire to its knees.
KSM beheaded Pearl: A challenge for Truthers
- Thread starter The Big Dog
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What was crazy about it?
It seems to have succeeded beyond their wildest dreams in bringing the US empire to its knees.
brodski
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No, has that happened to you?
Should public policy now be determined by victim-hood?
Have you ever been tortured?
What an odd response!
Lets not pussy foot around the issue of KSM being waterboarded. I have no doubt that he was and it is clear that you and others arn't happy with it but are happy to gloat over his human rights v Danials!
Are you not satisfied with the plethora of media stories that he was waterboarded? I am. He was. So what?
You wrote:
I was asking for evidence to support the assertions I have highlighted, above, rather than for an assertion that KSM was waterboarded.
Your description of waterboarding as "a bit of water" suggests a profound lack of knowledge about a procedure. The US executed Japanese people for doing it to US POWs.
TruthersLie
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YOu missed the point.
In Islam you do not attack innocent people. Anyone who does so is breaking the islamic faith.
It is like deranged christians who shoot abortion doctors. Are they "right thinking" christians? No, of course they aren't. They are not practicing their faith anymore.
From a strategic and tactical POV the attacks of 9/11 worked brilliantly. But they are not based on anything taught in islam. That is why I refer to the 19 hijackers and Al Q. as "crazy."
Seymour Butz
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Of what? He confessed about his dealings in 9/11 before he was even arrested by the ISI. Therefore that and any other statements he made before any of his waterboarding took place shouldn't impact his trial at all.
He was waterboraded to learn intel about AQ and their structure of organization, etc. Whether or not this helped out counter any future attacks will of course not be able to be determined, unless the CIA comes out and admits that intel that they got from him led directly to X,Y,Z.....
And of course it would be unlikely of them to come out and say that KSM told us "this", and "this" led to "these" investigations, which led to cooperation from "that" foreign intelligence agency, which led to thwarting "these" terrorist attacks.
The CIA isn't gonna show their hand as to what this intelligence led to, cuz it could jeopardize future operations.
I'm fine with saving lives if it comes from waterboarding. Even your life.
I Ratant
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"Everyone knows" that torture elicits the answer you want.
The list of events KSM "confessed" to that were never carried out, or thwarted in the carrying out is long.
As there's no history trail for those at all, it's easy to attribute the "confessions" as answers to any and all questions being put forward by the questioners.
Much like the disastrous "McMartin School Child Abuse" scandal here some time ago, where children testified to incredible types of abuse by some of the teachers at their school, and convictions were obtained..... until the process of getting those testimonies from the children were examined, and found to be the bizarre fantasies put to the children by the questioners, and all the convictions tossed.
I'm minded of a similar copy-cat prosecution at that time in San Diego, where a retarded handiman at a church who sometimes had sunday classes with children was accused of abuse, including scaring them with a death threat, which he illustrated by bringing an elephant to the Sunday school class, and killing it in front of the class.
I couldn't imagine a -sane- prosecutor putting this to a jury without falling on the floor in a hysterical fit, foaming at the mouth.
Elephants being expensive, and large, where would a person who had to use public transportation to get anywhere get an elephant, to the school, kill it, and dispose of the very large and very limp corpse?
And who'd he get it from, and why no questions about returning it?
This question never arose, but on investigation of the eliciting of the testimonies of the children the conviction was also tossed.
The list KSM was the alleged mastermind for reads similarly, with AQ having to be one big organization to be capable of handling all those attacks as "confessed to".
So no, the judicial process from the handing over by Pakistan to the CIA was ********** in an egregious criminal manner, and everything after the CIA's handling of the guy has no judicial value, no matter what anyone, including KSM may have said or says today.
Our traditional American values were raped and sodomized in this situation.
There's nothing to be proud here.
Go back to the Constitution and read it, and cherish what is there.
THAT is America.
This disgraceful event is Torquemeda at his worst.
The list of events KSM "confessed" to that were never carried out, or thwarted in the carrying out is long.
As there's no history trail for those at all, it's easy to attribute the "confessions" as answers to any and all questions being put forward by the questioners.
Much like the disastrous "McMartin School Child Abuse" scandal here some time ago, where children testified to incredible types of abuse by some of the teachers at their school, and convictions were obtained..... until the process of getting those testimonies from the children were examined, and found to be the bizarre fantasies put to the children by the questioners, and all the convictions tossed.
I'm minded of a similar copy-cat prosecution at that time in San Diego, where a retarded handiman at a church who sometimes had sunday classes with children was accused of abuse, including scaring them with a death threat, which he illustrated by bringing an elephant to the Sunday school class, and killing it in front of the class.
I couldn't imagine a -sane- prosecutor putting this to a jury without falling on the floor in a hysterical fit, foaming at the mouth.
Elephants being expensive, and large, where would a person who had to use public transportation to get anywhere get an elephant, to the school, kill it, and dispose of the very large and very limp corpse?
And who'd he get it from, and why no questions about returning it?
This question never arose, but on investigation of the eliciting of the testimonies of the children the conviction was also tossed.
The list KSM was the alleged mastermind for reads similarly, with AQ having to be one big organization to be capable of handling all those attacks as "confessed to".
So no, the judicial process from the handing over by Pakistan to the CIA was ********** in an egregious criminal manner, and everything after the CIA's handling of the guy has no judicial value, no matter what anyone, including KSM may have said or says today.
Our traditional American values were raped and sodomized in this situation.
There's nothing to be proud here.
Go back to the Constitution and read it, and cherish what is there.
THAT is America.
This disgraceful event is Torquemeda at his worst.
tsig
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I do.
Not entirely, but I'll consider the victims' families points more than anonymous, sanctimonious internet posters.
Seymour Butz
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I suspect that counter terrorism units valued his intel though. They seek to prevent incidents before they happen, by using aggressive means.
Your view on these matters mirrors Clinton's, Gorelick's, etc. They firmed up these protections that you whine about to make any evidence in a judicial case that may arise from a terrorist attack admissable, even though it weakened the ability (actually, it put in place legal measures to prevent it) of the intelligence agencies to "talk" to each other in order to prevent them.
Basically what you're saying is that a known terrorist - KSM - shouldn't be rigorously questioned to prevent further crimes against humanity, cuz you don't want the guys that actually do that thing to miss their day in court.
You should read something about what counter terrorism is all about. Special Ops teams in fact hunt down known terrorists and kill them, without a trial. The Pres directs this action. Think Clinton and OBL and the whole cruise missle fiasco. That is just on a larger scale. Were you against that, since it would have prevented OBL's day in court? I suspect not.
They know more about the importance in these things in a similar manner that Bazant knows more than either you or I knows about structural engineering. You are no different than when a truther says s/he's right and knows more than the acknowledged experts. This is your own personal Dunning-Kruger effect. Goody for you.
Oystein
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I think you completely miss what the ban on torture is all about. It is not the day in court. It is about where to draw the line on the slippery slope. It can never be up to governments to decide which humans may from now on denied the dignity of being a human.
How will you argue against torturing "simple" murderers, rapists, drug traffickers, once you allow that a specific mass murderer is removed from humanity and cool to be tortured?
You suspect that the torture of KSM may have done net good by preventing crimes by a specific small group. On the other hand, it may have recruited many new wanna-be suicide bombers for islamic causes, oir encouraged regimes around the globe to torture more and more blatantly. It tainted the esteem the USA is held in globally and certainly hurt your economy immeasurably. We will never know the good and bad outcomes of that torture. We simply know that torture is bad. I hope you know that.
brodski
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Ok, now then, can you point to where the victim’s family has called for or supported torture? Or are you just using that as a fig leaf for your own revenge fantasies?
I love the fact that objecting to torture is now "sanctimonious".
The focus of Islam seems irrelevant. In secular and Christian countries attacking innocent people is also seen as abhorrent yet that doesn't stop these societies building huge war machines to violently "defend their interests", killing thousands of innocent people in the process. Do you also regard these war machines' soldiers as crazy?
Which of Daniel's Pearl's family's "points" have you considered? Please list them.
Torturing people doesn't provide reliable information. It provides information that the tortured believe will stop them from being tortured.
Indeed . Lawless US foreign policy what makes the US' appeals to other countries to respect human rights morally bankrupt.
Is there an officially named fallacy that covers an appeal to truthers?
Childlike Empress
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Seymour Butz
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No comment on Clinton/OBL/trying to kill him? There was a guv trying to deny his dignity of being human. The ultimate denial. I'm sure you felt it justified, and yet, there is zero concern about any slippery slope here. I wonder why.
So you know nothing about counter terrorism either then, I take it? Domestic murderers do not fall under the jurisdiction of the responsibilities that the Pres has. International terrorists are the responsibility of the US military and the CIA. They operate under different rules. Time to get up to speed here.
Suspect is correct. I have zero proof, nor do I expect to ever see it.
Ha! I suspect they are not enraged by his torture. They openly condone it themselves. They are happy for him that he will be getting his 72 virgins.
You're incredibly naive to think that.
I agree that libtards the world over were appalled by it.
KSM's waterboarding hurt the US economy? LMAO. You are incredibily naive about economics then. Unless by immeasurably, you mean not at all.
I agree that it is to be avoided. You should also note that this was not a widespread practice.
Seymour Butz
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Oh yes it does.
All you need to do to refute your point is to read some testimony from US airmen during the Vietnam War. Some of them broke.
It cannot be prevented.
Violent Islamic radicalism has its roots in the Egyptian concentration camps where its early influential thinkers were tortured.
Nothing to do with virgins.
Oh no it doesn't.
'Top Interrogators Declare Torture Ineffective...':
"Fifteen former interrogators and intelligence officials with more than 350 years collective field experience have declared that torture is an “unlawful, ineffective and counterproductive” way to gather intelligence, in a statement of principles released today.
...
Summer, 2008
The principles below were developed by 15 individuals who served as senior interrogators, interviewers and intelligence officials in the United States military, the Federal Bureau of Investigation, and the Central Intelligence Agency. The group met at a forum hosted by Human Rights First on June 17 and 18, 2008, in Washington, D.C. to discuss the most effective ways to obtain timely and credible information from suspected terrorists and other individuals who threaten the security of the United States.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
We believe:
1. Non-coercive, traditional, rapport-based interviewing approaches provide the best possibility for obtaining accurate and complete intelligence.
2. Torture and other inhumane and abusive interview techniques are unlawful, ineffective and counterproductive. We reject them unconditionally.
3. The use of torture and other inhumane and abusive treatment results in false and misleading information, loss of critical intelligence, and has caused serious damage to the reputation and standing of the United States. The use of such techniques also facilitates enemy recruitment, misdirects or wastes scarce resources, and deprives the United States of the standing to demand humane treatment of captured Americans.
4. There must be a single well-defined standard of conduct across all U.S. agencies to govern the detention and interrogation of people anywhere in U.S. custody, consistent with our values as a nation.
5. There is no conflict between adhering to our nation’s essential values, including respect for inherent human dignity, and our ability to obtain the information we need to protect the nation."
How does their testimony demonstrate the reliability of information gleaned from torture?
Historically, the primary purpose of torture is to extract false confessions and denunciations, not accurate information
What cannot be prevented?
Seymour Butz
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So then you agree with Clinton?
Just kill 'em with a cruise missle?
No need to capture them and try to get intel?
I Ratant
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.
Captured prisoners are good sources of current Intel needs.
Torture doesn't get that, it gets the answers the tortured feels will relieve the pain, whatever those answers might be.
And if sufficiently motivated, take all kinds of abuse and die, or, mislead the questioners.
The events KSM was said to reveal sound just like he was replying to leading questions.. "were you going to attack.....?".. and KSM would affirm apparently all of these, which were based on the fears of the questioners, whether or not KSM actually knew anything about the particular subject.
The only real events he acknowledged were hardly "master minded", when considering the shoe bomber, already a well-known failure due to stupidity from the git-go.
None of the other "confessions" can point to an attempt thwarted by the information in any of the "confessions", there being nothing at all about any of them in the media.
As noted, just confirming the fantasies of the spookies in the CIA, as the children in McMasters confirmed the disgusting fantasies of their questioners.
The sumbitch was waterboarded 183 times!
And told the truth every time?
Only the stupid can accept that.