KSM beheaded Pearl: A challenge for Truthers

[The Big Dog]

.
Then his crime, if any, committed outside the jurisdiction of the United States, is subject to investigation in the relevant location.
Kidnapping him (itself illegal) to get him to where he is within the control of the United States places the 5th Amendment restriction on any activity by agents of the United States.
Tough titty, but we are supposed to be, and expected to be, a nation of laws.

The United States Supreme Court has repeatedly held that the United States has jurisdiction over crimes committed outside the United States where the crimes are directed against the United States.

They did not kidnap him. He was legally arrested in Rawalpindi, Pakistan, on March 1, 2003, by the Pakistani ISI. He was thereafter turned over to the United States.

HE admitted to slitting Daniel Perl's throat, and thereafter decapitating him.

 

[The Big Dog]

I watched that video years ago and I know why the time stamp was removed. If it had taken that long for me to behead someone I'd do it, too, Kids, you don't cut THROUGH bone, but BETWEEN bones. Through is for swords and axes, and an online execution shouldn't allow the infidel to bleed out 45 minutes before you are done. It's anti-climactic.

One of the extras of being a technical advisor for a crime writer is that you need to know, learn, or figure out these things. Better, without DOING any of it yourself. I mean, do you know how hard it is to get that much blood out of your whites?

I have a wife and daughters who still have periods for whom I sometimes do laundry and I know how hard it is.

Dude, pull yourself together.

 

[JihadJane]

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Dear confused.
What is there about the foundations of just about all religions that these foundations can't withstand questions about their validity, and these religions find it necessary to kill any questioners?
Murdering social workers who have volunteered to try to improve the lot of the general population is common-place in the embattled sections of the world where Islam holds the power.
Why does this happen?
How can it be rationalized in a manner that makes sense?
Why do the practitioners find it necessary to terminate lives, when if the tenets of the creed are real, Big Sky Daddy "will know His own", and send the proper miscreants to perdition?
He's in a much better position to know fact from fantasy, after all.

Many and varied are the ways in which people justify killing people.

 

[I Ratant]

The United States Supreme Court has repeatedly held that the United States has jurisdiction over crimes committed outside the United States where the crimes are directed against the United States.

They did not kidnap him. He was legally arrested in Rawalpindi, Pakistan, on March 1, 2003, by the Pakistani ISI. He was thereafter turned over to the United States.

HE admitted to slitting Daniel Perl's throat, and thereafter decapitating him.

.
And then the stupid mother ****ers in the CIA ********** up any chance of a legal judicial proceeding with the *********** waterboarding!

 

[Oystein]

You gonna defend a man who apparently cut a innocent mans head off with a knife?

Just want to be clear.

I wasn't asked, and the discussion has moved on, I just want to be clear:

Yes, I will defend a murderer's right to freedom from torture, and to due process, even if I know for certain his hand decapitated a man.
Torturing KSM was a vile crime that left a smelly stench on the jacket of the US nation. It doesn't matter one bit what he did.

 

[I Ratant]

I watched that video years ago and I know why the time stamp was removed. If it had taken that long for me to behead someone I'd do it, too, Kids, you don't cut THROUGH bone, but BETWEEN bones. Through is for swords and axes, and an online execution shouldn't allow the infidel to bleed out 45 minutes before you are done. It's anti-climactic.

One of the extras of being a technical advisor for a crime writer is that you need to know, learn, or figure out these things. Better, without DOING any of it yourself. I mean, do you know how hard it is to get that much blood out of your whites?

I have a wife and daughters who still have periods for whom I sometimes do laundry and I know how hard it is.

.
There's videos on the 'net of that method of sawing off the head, other than Pearl's.
It's a common practice.
And those of the traditional use of the sword don't exhibit any particular expertise either.

 

[TruthersLie]

What was the offense, other than being defenseless in a hostile situation?
The "religion of peace" sure got unpeaceful!

You are painting with a VERY broad brush here.

Any rational muslim will state that they think the murder of innocents is abhorent and against islam.

any rational muslim will denounce people like KSM and other terrorists.

You are making blanket generalizations against over 1 billion people based on the actions of less than .001% of people of that faith.

 

[I Ratant]

We would like to hope that rationality is commonplace in Islam.
Mostly, when the practitioner is not in an Islamic country, it is.
The rules of the predominately secular societies outside Islam are followed with little dissent.
That Islam can't separate secular life from religious life is the problem.
What are crimes in the West are crimes in Islam... knocking over the corner grocery store, hosting Ponzi schemes, the usual things everyone considers criminal. But Islam considers all living as part of its tenets.
When EVERYTHING is controlled by the religion, political statements included, then rationality isn't obvious.
We regard the assault on 9/11 as a crime.
In Islam it is a jihad, and perfectly acceptable.
The two can't co-exist.
Politics and religion MUST be separate!
The daily violence of sect versus sect is unacceptable, when rational thought is applied to the situations.
Sunnis have a different world view than Shi'ites, so what?
Who is harmed by having a different idea?
Especially about a phantasm!
Why is that the cause for the continuous stream of murders in Islam?

 

[TruthersLie]

We would like to hope that rationality is commonplace in Islam.

A huge and very wide brush is being used here.
Do you then accuse all christians of being blood thirsty monsters because of the actions of the "right to life" people who shoot abortion doctors?

Do you accuse all jews of being swindlers because some have been?

Do you accuse every german of being a Nazi because of the past of their country?

you need to be very careful and very concise when you accuse a group of people of doing things.

Mostly, when the practitioner is not in an Islamic country, it is.
The rules of the predominately secular societies outside Islam are followed with little dissent.

Have you ever lived in an Islamic country? I have and I am currently living in one.

That Islam can't separate secular life from religious life is the problem.

Very wide brush.
Turkey and Egypt are great islamic countries which enjoy a very diverse religious and secular life where politics and religion are sepearate. (among many others)

What are crimes in the West are crimes in Islam... knocking over the corner grocery store, hosting Ponzi schemes, the usual things everyone considers criminal. But Islam considers all living as part of its tenets.
When EVERYTHING is controlled by the religion, political statements included, then rationality isn't obvious.

Wide brush again. Look up Turkey, joradan, and most "western" islamic countries. EVERYTHING isn't controlled by the religion.

We regard the assault on 9/11 as a crime.
In Islam it is a jihad, and perfectly acceptable.

No. In Islam what was done on 9/11 is murder. Plain and simple. In Islam you had 19 crazy terrorists who murdered 3000 people.

To some very violent, disturbed individuals who have taken the roots of Islam and twisted them in ways that are abhorent to 99% of the rest of the muslims in the world. And you are painting with a very wide brush and accusing hundreds of millions of peaceful individuals of horrific actions (or lack of action). Should all christians be painted with the brush that they are all fundamentalist who think that abortion doctors should be murdered? Or that people on opposite political parties should be assassinated? Of course not.


ETA: As for Jihad. It is a "new" definition that a jihad is to fight invaders/infidels (from the 60's and 70's IIRC out of afghanistan).

The original meaning for jihad is to fight your own internal demons/ desires/ and vices. That is the original meaning.

The two can't co-exist.
Politics and religion MUST be separate!

Turkey, Jordan, Egypt and about a half dozen other islamic countries around the world do so EVERY day.

Wide brushes again.

The daily violence of sect versus sect is unacceptable, when rational thought is applied to the situations.

You need to have a long talk with catholics and protestants in Northern Ireland then...

Sunnis have a different world view than Shi'ites, so what?
Who is harmed by having a different idea?
Especially about a phantasm!
Why is that the cause for the continuous stream of murders in Islam?

Ah... yet neither Suni's nor Shi'ites condone the actions of AlQ and the events of 9/11. You are taking the actions of deranged individuals and smearing a whole group of people.

(for the record, I'm not muslim.)

 

[I Ratant]

A huge and very wide brush is being used here.
Do you then accuse all christians of being blood thirsty monsters because of the actions of the "right to life" people who shoot abortion doctors?

Do you accuse all jews of being swindlers because some have been?

Do you accuse every german of being a Nazi because of the past of their country?

you need to be very careful and very concise when you accuse a group of people of doing things.


Have you ever lived in an Islamic country? I have and I am currently living in one.


Very wide brush.
Turkey and Egypt are great islamic countries which enjoy a very diverse religious and secular life where politics and religion are sepearate. (among many others)


Wide brush again. Look up Turkey, joradan, and most "western" islamic countries. EVERYTHING isn't controlled by the religion.


No. In Islam what was done on 9/11 is murder. Plain and simple. In Islam you had 19 crazy terrorists who murdered 3000 people.

To some very violent, disturbed individuals who have taken the roots of Islam and twisted them in ways that are abhorent to 99% of the rest of the muslims in the world. And you are painting with a very wide brush and accusing hundreds of millions of peaceful individuals of horrific actions (or lack of action). Should all christians be painted with the brush that they are all fundamentalist who think that abortion doctors should be murdered? Or that people on opposite political parties should be assassinated? Of course not.


ETA: As for Jihad. It is a "new" definition that a jihad is to fight invaders/infidels (from the 60's and 70's IIRC out of afghanistan).

The original meaning for jihad is to fight your own internal demons/ desires/ and vices. That is the original meaning.


Turkey, Jordan, Egypt and about a half dozen other islamic countries around the world do so EVERY day.

Wide brushes again.


You need to have a long talk with catholics and protestants in Northern Ireland then...



Ah... yet neither Suni's nor Shi'ites condone the actions of AlQ and the events of 9/11. You are taking the actions of deranged individuals and smearing a whole group of people.

(for the record, I'm not muslim.)

.
Nicely put.
But the problem remains, deadly violence for religious/political purposes is commonplace in Islamic countries.
Even those with some manner of government that transcends Islam, such as those you noted.
One or two loons doing the occasional murder might be "normal" in the west, for whatever reasons, but mass murders occur daily even in those more advanced countries, and for religious reasons, since the politics can't be separated from the religion.

 

[TruthersLie]

Broad brushstrokes. Extremely broad brush strokes.

I live in one of the more "religious" islamic countries (the UAE is about the 4th or 5th most conservative with direct roots back to Saudi).

Even in very backwards and religious fundamental islamic countries you are painting with a broad brush.

I have asked my students what they think of the US and US christians... their replies sound like yours. They are terrified of US christians. They think that every city in the US is a complete lawless zone of drugs, crime and poverty. They think that US christians carry guns and kill people who disagree with them. Is their POV right? Of course not.

Ignorance on both sides is still ignorance.

That can be said of religious fundamentalists everywhere. You are painting over 1 Billion people based on the actions and reactions of less than .01% of the population.

As for your statement here

deadly violence for religious/political purposes is commonplace in Islamic countries.

do you want me to pull out the deadly violence for political purposes that are rampant throughout the US and the west? (how about that political assassination attempt in tucson last week?)

Broad brushes.

as for this

One or two loons doing the occasional murder might be "normal" in the west, for whatever reasons,

I live in Abu Dhabi. Please compare the murder rate in AD or Dubai vs any comparable city in the US. I know which one is safer.
Compare it with most muslim cities of the same size... the muslim ones win hands down. (that is even understanding that the muslim countries really control the release of that information and often use much smaller numbers than actually happen (many murders are reclassified as "accidental" deaths.)

In fact, I feel safer in AD than I ever did in Chicago, Baltimore, LA, or Phoenix. (besides for the crappy driving).

but mass murders occur daily even in those more advanced countries, and for religious reasons, since the politics can't be separated from the religion

Then I'm sure you can show me 'mass murders' for religious reasons in the UAE, Jordan, Egypt, Turkey. (or are you counting homicide bombings in certain countries? Iraq, Israel, and a few others? Because homicide bombings are again "crazy" people who attack innocents.)

 

[I Ratant]

Broad brushstrokes. Extremely broad brush strokes.

I live in one of the more "religious" islamic countries (the UAE is about the 4th or 5th most conservative with direct roots back to Saudi).

Even in very backwards and religious fundamental islamic countries you are painting with a broad brush.

I have asked my students what they think of the US and US christians... their replies sound like yours. They are terrified of US christians. They think that every city in the US is a complete lawless zone of drugs, crime and poverty. They think that US christians carry guns and kill people who disagree with them. Is their POV right? Of course not.

Ignorance on both sides is still ignorance.

That can be said of religious fundamentalists everywhere. You are painting over 1 Billion people based on the actions and reactions of less than .01% of the population.

As for your statement here


do you want me to pull out the deadly violence for political purposes that are rampant throughout the US and the west? (how about that political assassination attempt in tucson last week?)

Broad brushes.

as for this


I live in Abu Dhabi. Please compare the murder rate in AD or Dubai vs any comparable city in the US. I know which one is safer.
Compare it with most muslim cities of the same size... the muslim ones win hands down. (that is even understanding that the muslim countries really control the release of that information and often use much smaller numbers than actually happen (many murders are reclassified as "accidental" deaths.)

In fact, I feel safer in AD than I ever did in Chicago, Baltimore, LA, or Phoenix. (besides for the crappy driving).



Then I'm sure you can show me 'mass murders' for religious reasons in the UAE, Jordan, Egypt, Turkey. (or are you counting homicide bombings in certain countries? Iraq, Israel, and a few others? Because homicide bombings are again "crazy" people who attack innocents.)

.
All very nice, I'm sure one can be safer in any of those countries than in the enlightened western world.
Just avoid airports in Russia.
Or gatherings to celebrate the anniversaries of one's faith's core founders.
The number of mass murders in the US for religious/political reasons today is zero.
It usually is.
And that last one in Arizona... the jury hasn't even been convened to try to understand what brought that on.

 

[Jackanory]

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And then the stupid mother ****ers in the CIA ********** up any chance of a legal judicial proceeding with the *********** waterboarding!

You winge and whine about 'justice' being cheapened due to 'waterboarding'. KSM was far more valuable and knowlegable than to be treated with cotton mittens through your courts.

I rank saving peoples lives and preventing more atrocities far and above anything your 'legal judicial' system could ever have thrown at KSM such as Life imprisonment? The death penalty? Lethal injection? Electric Chair? All done nice a tastefully and by the book because of the 5th amendment. What a joke and an ass the law is. Draconian words written in a bygone age that are woefully misinterpreted to suit and no longer relevent to modern society. Hence the amendments! They certainly carry no weight in KSM's neck of the woods or mine!

I have no doubt that the waterboarding of KSM lead to much inteligence about his organisation, other planned attacks, atrocities, people, places, names, training camps, safehouses, weapons, explosives, drugs, money etc etc etc. ................................saving thousands of lives. Slam dunks the pussy footing around at a public and media infested trial and all it took was a bit of water.

 

[I Ratant]

No comment possible.

 

[Baylor]

So, you support the torture of murders? [sic]

Sometimes

Will you be campaigning for this to be rolled out for all murder cases in your jurisdiction?

No

Will it be all murderers who are tortured or just in cases of beheading?

See above

Or when the family requests it?

The victims' families have the biggest impact in determining my attitude.

Since I answered your string of stupid questions, answer mine. Was someone you loved ever brutally murdered on videotape?

 

[funk de fino]

Yes, if by "defend" you mean object to their torture.

Are you going to defend torture?

Way to miss the point.

 

[traviss]

Everyone knows those MSM journalists are in on it! The BBC even reported the collapse of WTC7 before it happened.

Only Alex Jones is qualified to lead the Real Investigation^TM.

I disagree wholeheartedly. pardon my double posting of this, but I'm not entirely sure if your response is just tongue'n'cheek

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6802271#post6802271

 

[JihadJane]

Sometimes No
See aboveThe victims' families have the biggest impact in determining my attitude.

Since I answered your string of stupid questions, answer mine. Was someone you loved ever brutally murdered on videotape?

While you're waiting for an answer, perhaps you'd like to respond to my request, above.

What evidence do you have that Daniel Pearl's family's response to his brutal murder is to seek brutal revenge?

It appears you are simply projecting your own desire for more violence onto them, in a cartoon way, misappropriating their suffering for your own purposes, without bothering to find out what their actual feelings and opinions are.

 

[JihadJane]

I have no doubt that the waterboarding of KSM lead to much inteligence about his organisation, other planned attacks, atrocities, people, places, names, training camps, safehouses, weapons, explosives, drugs, money etc etc etc. ................................saving thousands of lives. Slam dunks the pussy footing around at a public and media infested trial and all it took was a bit of water.

Try some doubt.

Then look for some evidence to support your assertions.

Then share whatever you find with us.

 

[I Ratant]

The casual ******** on the 240 years our patriots have watered the tree of our
liberties with their blood is foul and disgusting with this dismissal of basic
human rights as outmoded due to the fear that a legitimate legal case couldn't
be developed against an alleged member of the group that organized and committed the attack on the United States on 9/11 and therefore the horrific practices of oppressive governments in the past must be trotted out from the cemetary our nation placed them is truly an indictment of the values of these "super patriots" so frightened that losing the 240 years of progress in basic human rights can be so lightly considered really have.
Security above liberty.
Those that value that deserve neither.