Kent Hovind gets 10 years

Questioninggeller,

We could be practical for a moment. Let me give you my honest opinion. There are several issues here. One is the point of competency. Another is the point of justice. I don't imagine that Hovind is as competent in religious studies as for example someone I know in seminary that is a Hebrew scholar. My friend and Hebrew scholar is working on his doctorate. He is well beyond the qualifications of Hovind in my opinion.

Yet my point is justice not competency. To accuse Hovind of fraud is to indict the legal system of Colorado. You are attempting to hold him responsible for their decisions. There is no equity in that; it's entirely unreasonable.

Gene
 
Questioninggeller,

...
Yet my point is justice not competency. To accuse Hovind of fraud is to indict the legal system of Colorado. You are attempting to hold him responsible for their decisions. There is no equity in that; it's entirely unreasonable.

Gene

Does the state of Colorado make claims that Hovind has a "doctorate in education"?

Does the state of Colorado make claims that Hovind has a cure for cancer?
 
Questioninggeller,

Does the state of Colorado make claims that Hovind has a "doctorate in education"?

The state has delegated authority to the Colorado Higher Education Commission which in turn has delegated authority to Patriot University.

Kent HovindWP
  • On February 9, 1969, Hovind converted to Christianity. He has three degrees in Christian education from unaccredited institutions of higher learning.

I'm not sure if all three are from Patriot. Are you driving at the semantic point you made earlier?

Gene
 
Questioninggeller,

The state has delegated authority to the Colorado Higher Education Commission which in turn has delegated authority to Patriot University.

Kent HovindWP
  • On February 9, 1969, Hovind converted to Christianity. He has three degrees in Christian education from unaccredited institutions of higher learning.

I'm not sure if all three are from Patriot. Are you driving at the semantic point you made earlier?

Gene

1) I asked specifically if Colorado states Hovind has a "doctorate in education." You supplied a link from wikipedia that Hovind says has a unaccredited "doctorate in Christian education" (scroll down in the wikipedia article).

2) On the other hand, I provided video that Hovind sells saying he has a "doctorate in education" meaning he left out the word "CHRISTIAN" which belongs with his title (not to mention the neglected non-accredited.)

3) Hovind leaving out a word that would make his credential inherently religious "indict the legal system of Colorado" how?

Colorado authorizes religious degrees from Patriot, (eg Christian education) not secular degrees (education). Hovind leaves out the word in his speeches and videos. Colorado does not leave out the word "Christian" in his lectures and videos.

4) Hovind misleads people. The state of Colorado does not mislead people by excluding a religious word in Hovind's public presentations/merchandise.

1) Did you look up/ see the video of Hovind's claim that he has a cure for cancer?

2) Is it acceptable for someone without any accredited degrees in science who is wearing a lab coat talking about a doctorate and teaching science to make recommendations on cancer treatment?

Hovind's "cure for cancer" is 39:00 minutes into it (or 9:40 from the end):

 
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Questioninggeller,

Harvard and Yale were established as Christian Education institutions. All Ivy League colleges in America were. The distinction between 'Christian Education' and "Education' is a mote one.

As far as I can tell you have yet to prove that Hovind willfully intended to deceive anyone by acquiring a degree from a legally sanctioned institution. Now make no mistake; if you could prove it to me I would readily admit you made your case.

Gene
 
Questioninggeller,

Harvard and Yale were established as Christian Education institutions. All Ivy League colleges in America were. The distinction between 'Christian Education' and "Education' is a mote one.

As far as I can tell you have yet to prove that Hovind willfully intended to deceive anyone by acquiring a degree from a legally sanctioned institution. Now make no mistake; if you could prove it to me I would readily admit you made your case.

Gene
Hmm, Gene, if you are pretending to us you are doing law at university, or even that you have an acquaintence with the law, then you are not doing very well at it. See if you can spot the obvious flaw in your own post, OK?

As for Hovind's wilful attempts at deception, it seems it is plainly obvious to everyone and his dog, and the US Tax Office (which seems to be able to overlook a lot of dodgy dealing), that such is the case. Everyone with the exception of you, that is. There are none so blind who will not see, eh?

Hovind is in jail right now purely because he DID attempt to deceive. He has been at it for over a decade, and he has not been very good at it in all that time. And he has been deceptive not only about his tax dealings, but also his finances, his profession, his education, his science facts, himself, and his religion.

Looking at his professed Christian faith alone, he seems to be as far from following in Christ's footsetps as you can get. He's been an inveterate liar, thief, and deliberate hypocritical con-artist for a very long time. And trying to invoke Jesus to cover it up all the way along. I don't think you can get much lower than that...
 
Zep,

Hey zep, what's shaking? Let me give you a slight clue. You would not have a prayer with me in open court. That is a fact. Although it's not likely to happen it would amaze you how readily I would crush your simple behind. Let’s move to pertinent matters.

I've decided that I need to initiate my 'catch and release' policy with you. Hopefully I'll catch you some time in the future when you've managed to grow a little distance between your head and your tail. Be free, my little fish!

Gene
 
Zep,

Hey zep, what's shaking? Let me give you a slight clue. You would not have a prayer with me in open court. That is a fact. Although it's not likely to happen it would amaze you how readily I would crush your simple behind. Let’s move to pertinent matters.

I've decided that I need to initiate my 'catch and release' policy with you. Hopefully I'll catch you some time in the future when you've managed to grow a little distance between your head and your tail. Be free, my little fish!

Gene
Ah, I see. A response containing no actual content germane to the discussion. In normal circumstances, it means you concede our points. So do you have any other actual evidence that amounts to any sort of a defence of your client, Mr Hovind, counsellor? :rolleyes:

As for the childish taunt, AY, you are so, SO naive. Such a baby. But you will learn, you will learn! :p
 
At issue is Hovind's degree and it's validity. Further is to suggest that he obtained a legally valid degree with the intent to defraud. The point that he filed bankruptcy in the past and that petition was dismissed (for any reason) in no way substantiates the allegation that Hovind knowingly obtained a valid degree from an known legal entity in the state of Colorado authorized to issue that degree with the intent to defraud.

I move that these ludicrous charges be dismissed.

Gene

Being legal is meaningless, because it is the accreditation process that validates quality of the work and education that goes into it. It holds as much weight as an honorary degree, and do you think everyone with one of those should go around claiming to be equal to someone who really worked for it?
 
Questioninggeller,

We could be practical for a moment. Let me give you my honest opinion. There are several issues here. One is the point of competency. Another is the point of justice. I don't imagine that Hovind is as competent in religious studies as for example someone I know in seminary that is a Hebrew scholar. My friend and Hebrew scholar is working on his doctorate. He is well beyond the qualifications of Hovind in my opinion.

Yet my point is justice not competency. To accuse Hovind of fraud is to indict the legal system of Colorado. You are attempting to hold him responsible for their decisions. There is no equity in that; it's entirely unreasonable.

Gene

Wrong, the fraud is his misrepresentation, not having the degree. It would be like me making claims about herbal cancer cures and then saying that I am certified by NY to treat patients. That is all true I am a NYS certified EMT, it is also irrelevant as I am no way qualified to do the latter.
 
Questioninggeller,

Harvard and Yale were established as Christian Education institutions. All Ivy League colleges in America were. The distinction between 'Christian Education' and "Education' is a mote one.

Wrong. It is a religious degree as that is the only kind the school can offer, do not equate it. Also you might be surprised to learn this but all those schools are accredited.
 
Questioninggeller,

Where in the world are you?

Gene

It doesn't matter. Your refusal to comment on his cancer claim is noted.

As to your other statements others replied very well, which is probably why you have, again, ignored their points to bring up something irrelevant.

By the way, I laughed out loud when you compared the accredited and prestigious Harvard and Yale to Patriot University. The issue here isn't religion, its fraud and accreditation. Even if Hovind had an accredited degree in Christian Education leaving out Christian presents his "degree" as something its not.
 
Just piping in to say that some of us believers can't stand scam artists who hide behind the Bible and won't be shedding a lot of tears over this yutz. :p
 
It doesn't matter. Your refusal to comment on his cancer claim is noted.

It actually does matter when asking for a recess.

I'll comment on his cancer claim now. It's irrelevant to the point of substantiating intent to defraud by Hovind by his acquiring a perfectly legal degree from an institution of higher learning that is sanctioned by the legal authority of the State of Colorado.

Now to the point you made about the distinction of education and 'christian' education...

  • By the way, I laughed out loud when you compared the accredited and prestigious Harvard and Yale to Patriot University. The issue here isn't religion, its fraud and accreditation. Even if Hovind had an accredited degree in Christian Education leaving out Christian presents his "degree" as something its not.

You notice that it was the legal authority of a court that established Harvard. That established court acknowledge 'the good hand of God upon them'; they acknowledged that moral authority they derived their authority from. That very court delegates authority to the President of Harvard. That can be seen in the phrase have full power and authority. So to what end did this recognized authority (the court) delegate authority to the President? The purpose and motivation is seen in the expressions for the instituting, guiding, and furthering of the said College, and the several members thereof, from time to time, in piety, morality, and learning; the motivation of the President seen in the expression as they shall see necessary.
The Act establishing the Overseers of Harvard College.
At a General Court held at Boston in the year 1642.​

Whereas, through the good hand of God upon us, there is a College founded in Cambridge, in the county of Middlesex, called Harvard College, for the encouragement whereof this Court has given the sum of four hundred pounds, and also the revenue of the ferry betwixt Charlestown and Boston, and that the well ordering and managing of the said College is of great concernment:

It is therefore ordered by this Court, and the authority thereof, that the Governor and Deputy Governor for the time being, and all the Magistrates of this jurisdiction, together with the teaching Elders of the six next adjoining towns, viz. Cambridge, Watertown, Charlestown, Boston, Roxbury, and Dorchester, and the President of the said College for the time being, shall, from time to time, have full power and authority to make and establish all such orders, statutes, and constitutions, as they shall see necessary for the instituting, guiding, and furthering of the said College, and the several members thereof, from time to time, in piety, morality, and learning: As also to dispose order, and manage to the use and behoof of the said College, and the members thereof, all gifts, legacies, bequeaths, ....


  • At a General Court held at Boston in the year 1642
  • It is therefore ordered by this Court, and the authority thereof,
  • Whereas, through the good hand of God upon us, there is a College founded in Cambridge
  • and the President of the said College for the time being, shall, from time to time, have full power and authority
  • as they shall see necessary for the instituting, guiding, and furthering of the said College, and the several members thereof, from time to time, in piety, morality, and learning

The similarities between Harvard and Patriot Bible University are

  • They both had meager beginnings
  • Those beginnings were by acts of duly authorized authorities
  • Their purpose and motivations are education in morality and piety and as they see necessary

Now by what authority do you suppose you have to question the purpose and motivation of the duly appointed executioner of power and authority of Harvard or Patriot Bible University to issue degrees? How is it, do you suppose, you have the right to accuse someone having a degree from Patriot Bible University to have a fake degree. You can only do that if you cross the lines of reason, meaning and the established legal authorities of the day. As far as I know there hasn't been a decree that anarchy is legal.

Further you haven't established intent to defraud with your claim there is a difference between 'education' and 'christian education' much less that it is fraud by nondisclosure. The very mention of having a degree from Patriot Bible University discloses it in the same manner that it used to when you said you had a Harvard degree. In time that may change as it has with Harvard.

Gene
 
Some of the first professors at Harvard were deacons from surrounding jurisdictions...
  • It is therefore ordered by this Court, and the authority thereof, that the Governor and Deputy Governor for the time being, and all the Magistrates of this jurisdiction, together with the teaching Elders of the six next adjoining towns
Christian, no doubt.

Gene
 

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